Kylie Davis:

Welcome back to the PropTech Podcast, season two. It's Kylie Davis here, and I'm delighted to be your host as we explore the brave new world where technology, real estate, and property collide. I passionately believe we need to create and grow a sense of community between the innovators, agents, and property owners and sharing our stories is a great way to do that. Now the aim of each episode is to introduce business to a PropTech innovator who is pushing the boundaries of what's possible across how we design, build, buy, sell, rent, and invest in property, and all the associated behaviours around it.

Kylie Davis:

Now none of this would be possible without the help of our sponsors. So a big thank you to Direct Connect, Dynamic Methods and Forms Live, and the PropTech Association of Australia. Thank you for your support, which is making this podcast possible. Now, my guest in this episode is Andrew Duncan, the founder and CEO of Sorted Services, an app that I personally love because it's an app that makes life simple by centralising all the annoying, difficult, and time-consuming things that you have to deal with as a homeowner, including the payment of utilities, insurance, and even maintenance all in one space.

Kylie Davis:

Now, Andrew Duncan has more than 21 years experience in utility connections combined with entrepreneurial technology, businesses, servicing utility connections. And in this interview, we explore the incredible opportunity that is available in the property management space, in helping homeowners as well as renters to manage the adulting of owning and living in a property. So here to tell us all about it, Andrew Duncan, welcome to the PropTech podcast.

Andrew Duncan:

Thank you very much for having me, Kylie.

Kylie Davis:

I have heard quite a lot about Sorted Services. Are we calling it Sorted Services? Or are we just calling it Sorted?

Andrew Duncan:

I don't mind. Either is fine.

Kylie Davis:

Okay, so let's just stick with the easier one, Sorted. Tell me the elevator pitch for Sorted.

Andrew Duncan:

Look, what we are is, we're the Australian property market's first digital solution for managing key property related activities and home services in a nutshell.

Kylie Davis:

Awesome. So who uses Sorted? Is it agents or is it home owners, or tenants?

Andrew Duncan:

It's actually both, Kylie. We have a B2B platform that enables, facilitates management of transactions for the agents, the property managers themselves, but it connects directly through to a digital platform that consumers use, whether that's a renter, whether that's a landlord or whether that's a homeowner. They then use the end marketplace themselves and interface in, with the property managers.

Kylie Davis:

So the consumer side of it, that's in a mobile phone app. Is it?

Andrew Duncan:

Correct.

Kylie Davis:

And then the platform is obviously more desktop driven.

Andrew Duncan:

Yep.

Kylie Davis:

For agents?

Andrew Duncan:

That's a cloud 19 SAS platform for the agent market.

Kylie Davis:

Okay, fantastic. So what sort of things can I connect up, or what sort of things can I do inside Sorted, as a homeowner, as a-

Andrew Duncan:

Sure. So what we've done is, we saw that there was a really disconnected flow in how the transactions work and how the services actually operate in the market. So what we've done is, we work from the very first stage of a lease. So whether you're applying for a lease, that happens throughout our platform, right through to the lease signing, the rent setup itself, the payments set up, and then the services set up and the ongoing services management. So things like electricity, your broadband, your gas and all those sort of home services, but also things like maintenance and trades, where you can do all that from your app. And also in interface with the property manager who, if there's maintenance to be done, can then go out to the landlord and connect all that back up, through the single customer experience and that app layer.

Kylie Davis:

Okay, awesome. So it's not just something that you use at the time when you're moving, it's something you can use sort of throughout your-

Andrew Duncan:

Correct.

Kylie Davis:

Throughout your time.

Andrew Duncan:

That's right. So we're not a move-home company. We're a technology platform that enables the move-in, but then also the ongoing management of the home services once you've moved in.

Kylie Davis:

Fantastic. So Sorted Services isn't just a moving app. It's actually something that I can use as a renter to book all my maintenance and stuff like that. What if I'm a homeowner? Can I use it for that too?

Andrew Duncan:

You can and that's part of our philosophy, is what we're trying to do is take the same... We have traditional property management approach where you've got a tenant and a property manager, we're also providing that same capability to a homeowner. So if there's a tree fall on your roof, you can then go straight through to getting that tree and the roof fixed, through the same app and the same interface and the same model, basically. So it is for homeowners as well.

Kylie Davis:

Okay. So that sounds awesome. So as an agent, who's just sold a property to a happy new buyer, you could offer that to them so that if they need maintenance jobs done, there's some way for them to book it without having to go through Google or-

Andrew Duncan:

Correct.

Kylie Davis:

Classified ads or-

Andrew Duncan:

That's exactly right.

Kylie Davis:

Magnets on your fridge seems to be my husband's way of doing things.

Andrew Duncan:

Exactly. Right. And that's a very good example of where we're trying to take the property management that has traditionally been in that tenant landlord, property managers segment, across to sales as well, is that... I've got a house here and I've got an investment property, but I don't get any help from my property manager for my home. We want to change that. There's no reason why that service can't be extended to homeowners if they want that. But we're not just the maintenance and trades platform. It's all of home management tools. And part of that is the trades and maintenance, the activities that the homeowner or the occupier might need, whether that's the landlord, the tenant or the householder.

Kylie Davis:

So what other tools are in there?

Andrew Duncan:

You've got your electricity, you've got your gas, you got your broadband, you've got insurances in there. And then we're adding to that marketplace all the time, to enable it as a one-stop shop for people to go and work out what they're doing around their home and bring all those things into one spot. And that's our vision and that's what we're doing. We've got all of those services that I just mentioned there already in. And then we've got an expanding marketplace as we develop, that can provide more to the customer.

Kylie Davis:

Fantastic. How big is the- The problem that you're solving, which is one which I comment on a lot, which is, when you buy a property and rent it out, if anything happens to it, there's a property manager who takes care of it. When you buy the home you live in and something happens to it, you and your partner end up doing rock/ paper/scissors to wait for them to find the tradie, or the three tradies, only one of whom will actually show up four days late, and then not properly give you a quote. But there's so much pain in home ownership, but do you know how big that market is around this? You know, repairs, maintenance, space?

Andrew Duncan:

Look, yes, the total addressable market, even in Australia, it's enormous. Globally, it's in the multiple trillions, of course, it's a massive space. And you know that we probably should point out that the Sorted vision is not just to be the trades and maintenance part. Because what we're doing is, we're trying to look after people's homes with the services that are coming in and to guide them through various stages. But when something does require a new hot water system, or something's blown up overnight, that you can just do things really quickly and using a digital interface like we use for other things where we don't have to go through a painful experience to get those things sorted out. And that's what we're doing, is bringing all that into one spot and doing it very quickly, but seamlessly, for the customer, where they can just quickly pick up the app and get their hot water replaced and booked-in and done. And that's where we're on a journey to try and improve that experience for all those types of situations.

Kylie Davis:

And so one of the side effects or outcomes of doing all of this stuff, like your insurance and your electricity and look, you can see in my background, there are two baskets there that are full of bits of paper and they are bank statements and receipts and all the gunk that is required to run a household. But if you've got everything in an app from insurance to power to gas to the tradie turning up, to fix the hot water, you're almost getting a set of digital keys for a property?

Andrew Duncan:

Correct.

Kylie Davis:

Aren't you? Yeah. That's exciting.

Andrew Duncan:

That's exactly right. And that's the key customer pain point that we are solving for, is that just about every household has got bills and notices everywhere, and we bring them to one spot and also help people digest all that and make sure that they're getting the best value out of those different service providers and that they can see it all in one spot and they can keep on top of things. And then it works its way into making sure budgets are clear. We're all busy. And I've had a long history in this utility space. And what we know is that people don't really want to deal with any of this, you just-

Kylie Davis:

Oh no, it's boring homework, it's adulting. We hate it.

Andrew Duncan:

So we're specialising in the boring and trying to make it easier for people to get all that sorted. And that's where the brand comes from, and the philosophy, is get it sorted so I can get on and live my life in more exciting areas. And that's really a good example of the problem we're trying to solve for, which is to tidy it all up for people, but do it in a way that's really easy to use. And we keep building that out as we go. And that's what we're up to.

Kylie Davis:

Fantastic. So this is a pretty competitive space though, isn't it? There are utilities companies. There's a lot of people that they've been... There are other businesses out there. What do you see is your main advantage?

Andrew Duncan:

There are providers in different ways, there's traditional retail, energy and gas companies or border companies, et cetera that have been doing it a traditional way for a very long time. They're obviously going to continue on. We've also then got a convergence of service providers. You see Telstra entering energy. You know, you've got the Commonwealth Bank have entered energy. So there's a big change in that space, but property is the core driver of all this. And I think that the real estate market has a massive opportunity to really be the central piece of how all that happens and what we're trying to do, is provide the industry with the tools to play a big role in that because the agents and the property managers are the ones that have the customer relationships.

Andrew Duncan:

And we see that providing tools to the agents and the property managers will enable them to service their clients better and then support them in this area. And that's where we see our differentiator. There's no model like Sorted out there. There are move-home companies that do the utilities connections, but that's a one-and-done. So you set up, you move on. And what we're trying to provide the agent market with, is an ongoing service that they can provide to their customers where they're more relevant between sales, between leases and just making life better for people, which enhances their brand and brings new value to the market and to their businesses. That's why we say our model is different.

Kylie Davis:

Awesome. So I love this, but one of the issues that I hear from people in the property management space is that because COVID made everyone's life absolutely crazy, especially if you're a property manager, but these girls are hugely busy already doing what they're already doing. Is there capacity in the property management market to take on the delivery of services to homeowners that you've dealt with, as well as landlords and tenants, or how to manage that?

Andrew Duncan:

Yeah. Look, that's a really interesting lens. I think the first thing we've got to do is make that experience of being a property manager better. So through our SAS platform and our software, a key objective for us is to make it easier for them to do their job. So if we can make it easier for them to do their job and do a better job through what we call a "connective journey," if things happen when they're supposed to happen really easily, we think it'll be a much more enjoyable, it is a much more enjoyable, experience already. With that then comes opportunity to provide broader services and make it more like an advisory role rather than a task-driven role. So how do you actually change the shape of what a property manager is doing today into tomorrow? We think there's huge scope for that.

Kylie Davis:

Let's just take a short break and hear a quick word from our sponsors.

Kylie Davis:

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Kylie Davis:

So the Sorted platform assists property managers to make their job easier. Does it sit together with a property management platform or a CRM, or is it instead of?

Andrew Duncan:

No, we sit over the top. We interface in, with whatever they're using and again, the reason we do that is, we don't want to make it a difficult decision. We want to digitise the experience. We want to provide a new customer experience to property manager and the end customer, whether that be a landlord or a tenant or a homeowner, but we don't want to have a board decision to change a CRM system, which is a big decision and a big project. We interface with the main property management systems across the country, and we're working very well with all of them and we want to continue to do it that way because it's just an easier way of implementing. So it's a faster, more nimble implementation. And then that allows us to do the part we do well and concentrate on that and let the property management systems do what they do well.

Kylie Davis:

Awesome. So tell me, how did you get into this space? Tell me a little bit about your career. What made you start up Sorted?

Andrew Duncan:

I'll do this as quickly as I can. I started my first business, coming out of working as a product manager in the energy market. So really challenging, and I was lucky enough to join the industry when it first was formed, when Kennett privatised the Victoria electricity market back in 1993. Some of your audience wouldn't have been around then. So I started that back then, and in '99, I started my business to build a technology platform to service new entrants into the retail energy market. And that business was called Service Works. And so I've been in the utilities and technology area for a long time, but another part of that business is a business called Connect Now, which was the very early stages of formation in regards to the move-home and utility connection companies.

Andrew Duncan:

So that business grew up and the whole industry's matured. I got to know how those businesses work. And I sold that group in 2011, Kylie, and stayed with the group for a few years. And then having left the business, I just had this feeling about, and knowing how the different parts of the industry work, really got close to a lot of people in real estate through my journey through Connect Now, that there was a very disjointed approach, that there was a lot of handoffs and a lot of frustration. And also a lot of people who were wanting to do it better and embrace technology.

Andrew Duncan:

So all that shaped up to the vision of Sorted, which was, can we build a technology platform that really brings those processes and those communications together in a seamless way for customers and for employees in the market? And that's where Sorted was, the vision for it was formed. It was to come back in and provide a New Age technology version of what was going on in a manual way and how could we do that? And that's what Sorted is about, so it's my second round in Startup Land. And we're pretty passionate about what we're doing here.

Kylie Davis:

So how old are you now? How old is Sorted now?

Andrew Duncan:

Sorted is about three years old. And so the technology platform we built is quite extensive from end to end, and we've been testing and learning and iterating all our way through that. Got a committed, really passionate, committed team of people here in Melbourne. And yeah, we're right in the middle of our journey here, with bringing the Sorted vision to life.

Kylie Davis:

And how big is your team?

Andrew Duncan:

It's about 20 people, across all functions of customer engagement, design. We have developers, all the different types of developers that you need, dev ops, and you've also got some operation and staff across that, and we've got our go-to market team that deal with the industry day-to-day.

Kylie Davis:

And who are some of the clients that are using it? Can you do a bit of a brag?

Andrew Duncan:

We're just very lucky to have such great clients that help us, and they're on the journey with us. So we talk a lot about what they want and what they need. And then we put that through, into our thinking. So if you look at the likes of Nelson Alexander here in Victoria, one of the leading and largest groups here, a terrific advocate and very much involved in what we're doing. We've got Independent Property Group in Canberra. From the start we've been working with the guys at Independent Property Group, very forward-thinking and embracing the way the market's moving and leading it. We've got The Property Collective out of Canberra. We've got The Agency, covering a number of different states there with The Agency. So yeah, we've got a wide range of it, and we've got broader clients than that, but we certainly are very close to our clients and what they need and what the industry is wanting and needing. Matching that to what our vision is, is where we want to take it. So we work hand-in-glove with those guys day-to-day.

Kylie Davis:

So what's your business model? So is it subscription for the platform, but do agents who are taking part, get a clip-through of any of the services that are being sold through Sorted?

Andrew Duncan:

So our model is, we provide a SAS platform for the way they manage functions. So we do have a SAS fee for that-

Kylie Davis:

Fair enough.

Andrew Duncan:

Because it is an extensive platform. And then we have on the marketplace side is, we have a revenue model that we share that revenue back to the agents, which offsets the SAS fee. So our aim is to make the technology revenue-positive for them. So rather than being a new cost for them, we try to make it that they're actually revenue-positive, in the way that marketplace works in, with the operation SAS platform. So it's probably a new pricing modelling in the SAS world where we do charge for the platform, and then offset that against what comes out of the marketplace. And we work with our partners to tailor up the marketplace services that revenue is derived from.

Kylie Davis:

You can choose. I know it's not just maintenance, but let's just use that because that's an easy example. You could choose, if you're a real estate agency with a select group of tradies that you really like, and give work to, you could put them into it or?

Andrew Duncan:

Correct. That's exactly right.

Kylie Davis:

Perfect.

Andrew Duncan:

We all know how passionate the property management market are about their tradies. And we embrace that and respect that. And we want them to bring on their tradies to the platform, but also provide value to the tradies in terms of the way the process works and also the property manager and how that flow and that operation improvement comes through. And then there's how that interfaces with the landlords. That's one area that they tailor up on the marketplace. They could have preferred suppliers in other areas too, that we need to tailor up the marketplace for. Some have certain providers around insurance, for example. And we embrace those, but we also bring offerings to that marketplace. So it's a mixture to try and create a rich offering for their customers.

Kylie Davis:

And so is there any charges for the end-user, for the homeowner or for the renter? No. It's free for them to use.

Andrew Duncan:

Well, at the moment. I would envisage at some stage that there might be services that we do want to charge for. At the moment, the actual platform is free to the end-user.

Kylie Davis:

Fantastic.

Kylie Davis:

Let's just take a short break and hear a quick word from our sponsors. Do you run a PropTech business or are you the founder of a PropTech? Make sure you join the PropTech Association of Australia. It's Australia's new not-for-profit association made up of tech people who are passionate about the property industry and committed to improving experiences in how we buy, sell, rent, manage, build, and finance property. Joining will give you access to events and networks across Australia and globally, to help you promote and grow your business. Go to proptechassociation.com.au and follow the prompts to join.

Kylie Davis:

So, Andrew, I'm really fascinated by this because it seems to make so much sense that you as a real estate agent, you have access to amazing services and trades, and your home is a complete minefield of data, really, that is all over the place in bank statements and credit cards and receipts and all this. I love the idea that that all of this stuff's being brought together and it's staying connected with people that you've sold property to, in the past, as well as providing an additional service for people who are renting. What's on your roadmap, what's coming next? How big are you at the moment and how big do you want to be? What are your plans?

Andrew Duncan:

Yeah, another good question, the roadmap question. We know it's a daily discussion, it's all attached to the vision. But probably the biggest challenge is to ensure you're balancing what you need for your clients today and how to make the experience better. And you've got daily learnings, on things that work and things that don't work. It's getting those things right with the future, balancing that with the future. But we are really pushing forward into adding more capabilities for the end customer. So what can customers do?

Andrew Duncan:

We've had a phase of really making sure that what we can do to help the employee experience for property managers and the like, we've been focusing really hard on that. And your roadmap then starts to turn to, well, what can you do to help the end customer more? And our road map is now pointing more towards the end customer because we will still continue to improve the agent experience. As we go, we'll then start to focus more on the customer, things around payments and giving a better view to the overall situation within the home, to then allow people to do things, to save money, do things faster, work with their housemates. So those sorts of convenience tools is where we will be heading.

Kylie Davis:

Do you pay your rent through it?

Andrew Duncan:

Correct.

Kylie Davis:

Oh, okay. Awesome. Andrew, get your crystal ball out. What do you think is coming down the pike in this space of home ownership? What are the trends that you're seeing that are going to be, when we look back in five years time, what, are we going to go, "Oh my God, I can't believe we used to do it that way." Where do you think we're going to get to?

Andrew Duncan:

Massive, massive difference in the way things are executed. I think massive difference in the way that data is visualised and represented, back to end customers and allow them to do things far more quickly, because we know what's going on, that we can actually be helping people before there's problems. I think the whole thing will look very different. I think we'll see convergence of suppliers in that whole services market, we're going to see big push from the likes of Telstra and others into this space. But I also see that the property market and the real estate agents will become a bigger part of it. And I think the PropTech industry itself is on the verge of supporting some of these changes. And there'll be some pretty big winners out of it, in my view, in terms of what will go forward into global markets and the like, new business models.

Andrew Duncan:

Similar to what we saw with FinTech probably, three, five years ago, I think we will see emerging over the next five years, in PropTech and in and around this space. Not with Sorted, but other businesses that are doing really important work in and around this.

Andrew Duncan:

And then I also think collaboration will be different. Companies like Sorted will be collaborating with a whole bunch of other smart technology providers that come together and collaborate interface like we're doing with property management systems. And I think that that whole ethos on collaboration, open APIs and the like, we'll start to see some really interesting things happen and look very different.

Kylie Davis:

Yeah. And so I completely agree there. What are you seeing at the moment from the big utility providers? Are they trying to- because I've got a Telstra app for my Telstra mobile phone that they want me to pay through that. And then Optus, because the house is on Optus broadband. They want me to download another app and use that and I can only have a login every third time on it. And then you've got other. Everybody wants me to have an app, but it seems to me that having it all inside one thing like Sorted, would be awesome. Because I don't know where to go to pay for it. And in fact, all that data is in sitting in there, so tax time and that all gets a lot easier too. But is your advice to the utility companies to start to come into these things rather than trying to invent them, themselves?

Andrew Duncan:

I think they need a level within their own service portfolio, they need to have their own technologies and their own apps, et cetera. But I think what I talked about before, is to be open to interfacing with other models. I think they're starting to get there. So we've got a couple of the larger retail energy companies already API and into our platform and that wouldn't happen five years ago. There's just no way.

Andrew Duncan:

We're starting to see both. I don't think it will be either/or. I think it will be both. And I think that the winners will be those that can play in those different arenas, and still represent their brands well, but be able to leverage their technology, to be able to interface into other models as well. It's probably the next generation of channel and grow-through channels, is where those service providers will go. But you'll also see a wider range of services from some of those companies, which will be more convenient, for their customers. And we think that there's good opportunity to be working with them as well.

Kylie Davis:

Fantastic. On that topic of brand as a real estate agent, how does Sorted keep my name as an agent? I sold you the house five years ago and you've been using Sorted. What's the connection there? How do you keep them connected with the agent?

Andrew Duncan:

So we have different models depending what the agent wants, Kylie. If the agent wants a branded experience, we've got some clients that have fully branded experience. And if they are adding value and the customer's continuing to use that, then that would remain. If they're a client that doesn't want their brand on certain services, then we have a branded model with the Sorted brand and certain aspects of that are representative of the agent. So the rent, the trades, the maintenance, the property management things, are represented of the brand, the real estate agent brand, and the rest of it is represented with the Sorted brands. So we have different models depending what the client wants.

Kylie Davis:

Okay, awesome. So you can have it fully branded. You can have it not branded at all. You can have it a bit, half and half in the middle.

Andrew Duncan:

Correct.

Kylie Davis:

Awesome. Fantastic. Well, and so Andrew, are you focusing solely on Australia at the moment or you've got grand plans for world domination? Tell us about that.

Andrew Duncan:

Well, part of starting in the first place was to get it into global markets. So we do have those ambitions, but we feel like we need to take- Our roadmap needs to be more mature in this market that we know, before we take it to other markets. So we're concentrating on Australia with a close eye on other markets globally, and where we fit, where market conditions are similar and market structures are similar so that you can use, we need to be able to use the same technology. So that's certainly what we're doing. So the answer is Australia for the moment, but we do want to take it to other markets as soon as we can, when it's right.

Kylie Davis:

Fantastic. Well, look, Andrew, it's been absolutely fascinating to talk to you today. Thank you so much for being on the PropTech Podcast.

Andrew Duncan:

It's my pleasure. Thanks very much for having me, Kylie.

Kylie Davis:

Thanks. I've loved hearing about Sorted. I can't wait. I'm think I'm going to go and try and find if I can download it.

Andrew Duncan:

Well, you let me know how you go with it. When you begin to intuitively use it, it is a new model and we're learning a lot to make sure it's intuitive for customers. So let me know what you think.

Kylie Davis:

Fantastic. Thanks for being on the show. So that was Andrew Duncan from Sorted Services. Technology that centralises all the bills and services you need as a homeowner and gives you a single view to manage and sort them out while also letting you earn bonus points, compare deals, buy services and manage maintenance. Now, if you're a fan of the podcast, you'll have heard me banging on, about how much hard work is involved in home ownership and my complaints around it being so stressful and adulting. Some of the biggest arguments my husband and I have ever had, have been around home maintenance issues and tradies. It's the combination of stresses around time, money, and commitment, and having to live with the consequences if it's not right, that makes it all so painful. Principals and property managers really need to get their brains around this as an idea. And the time to understand the potential of the property management market is now, because if, as an industry, we don't start to take steps to be central to those services, we risk being completely sidelined.

Kylie Davis:

And that will have major ramifications for residential real estate. There are 10.6 million dwellings in Australia, according to Core Logic and every single one of them is connected to electricity and potentially gas and broadband, and they all need services or trades at least once a year. There's also been more than 416,000 property sales this year, which means about 800,000-plus people moving home. And I don't understand why as an industry, we only deliver services to renters, which make up 31% of this market. It's like we're determined to think small, but property management is central to the valuation of real estate businesses. It could and should also be central to our positions in the community as problem-solvers for property owners. And if we can crack that, we'll also own an amazing source of sales leads data as we build relationships for life, with property owners, from those who buy homes from us.

Kylie Davis:

So congratulations, Sorted, on getting this sorted. If you're a homeowner or an agent, you can download the Sorted Services app from Google Play or Apple, or check them out online, sortedservices.com No "au" Now, if you have enjoyed this episode of the PropTech Podcast, I'd love you to tell all your friends. Check out all our episodes on the proptechpodcast.com or drop me a line either by email, LinkedIn or Facebook. You can follow the podcast on Spotify, Google podcasts, and get an Apple iTunes and anywhere good podcasts are heard. I'd like to thank my podcast producer, Charlie Hollins, and our sponsors, Direct Connect, making moving easy, Dynamic Methods, the name behind Forms Live, REI Forms Live and Realworks. And the PropTech Association of Australia, Australia's industry body supporting the flourishing PropTech community. And if you're an Australian or New Zealand PropTech, who would like to be on the show, drop me a line by LinkedIn or kylie@poptechassociation.com.au Thanks everyone. Until next time, keep on PropTeching.