Kylie Davis: (00:01)

Welcome to the Proptech Podcast. It's Kylie Davis here, and I'm delighted to be your host as we explore the brave new world where technology and real estate collide. I passionately believe we need to create and grow a sense of community between the innovators and real estate agents and property professionals, and sharing our stories is a great way to do that. The aim of each episode is to introduce listeners to a PropTech innovator who is pushing the boundaries of what's possible. And to explore the issues and challenges raised by the tech and how they can create amazing property experiences.

Kylie Davis: (00:34)

Now, this week is one for commercial agents with an interview with Chris Omeissah digital real estate leader at the digital twin company, Willow. Many of you will know Chris from his previous role at KPMG Australia, where he worked in the high growth ventures division as PropTech expert. He has a strong PropTech pedigree and is also a cohort mentor for REACH Australia. Now, if you're like me, you've heard of the term digital twin, but never really understood what it was or how on earth it related to PropTech. In this interview, Chris unpacks exactly what a digital twin is and how it relates to us creating smart buildings and smart cities. Now, smart cities are predicted to go from US dollars, 410 billion in 2020 up to $820.7 billion by 2025, according to smart cities global report, which was released last year. So this is a really high growth space. So strapping, we're going to get geeky about big data and buildings, here to explain more Chris Omeissah, welcome to the Proptech Podcast.

Chris Omeissah: (01:41)

Thanks Kylie, I'm glad to be here.

Kylie Davis: (01:43)

It's great that we've finally been able to catch up and happy new year, and I'm really looking forward to finding out more about digital twins. So let's go with it, we always set off at the Proptech Podcast with your elevator pitch. So what is the elevator pitch for Willow?

Chris Omeissah: (02:00)

Yeah, so I guess where we start is Willow is really a digital twin company that specialises across real estate and infrastructure and I'll get into what a digital twin is or how we define it. But ultimately we map the relationship between people, spaces, places, and devices within a building. What we're looking at bridging is basically the physical and digital worlds. So digital twin typically has three concepts, so we look at the physical building itself, the digital layer, which sits on top, where we aggregate live static and spatial data or dynamic data and environment, and then the connection between the two.

Chris Omeissah: (02:39)

As a company we're focused on really people that have the same objective, same mindset to design digitally end to end. And to really bring all the disparate data sources within the build environment, into a single pane of glass throughout the life cycle of real estate. So that sounds really broad, but that's ultimately what our focus is, so think of us as a data governance and data enablement company, and that's where we focus to start.

Kylie Davis: (03:09)

Okay. So what I really want to understand though, is what is a digital twin and why do I, if I, why do I need one in real estate?

Chris Omeissah: (03:19)

I think a digital twin is... A lot of people call it a virtual replica of an existing asset. But the way to think of a digital twin, digital twins have been around for a long, long time, which I can touch on a bit later. But it really focuses on aggregating all the different sources of data that sit within a building that can either impact building performance, or operational performance, or the end user experience within the asset. There's a lot of data that's accumulated throughout the design and construction process, which helps with standards for handover and commissioning. And ultimately a digital twin focuses on starting with the use cases in mind, the smart building use cases, which dictate the way a building should operate in the future. So that's basically how I say it, we look at it through the lens of three core data sources.

Chris Omeissah: (04:13)

So what underpins a digital twin is really the live data that's submitted through all the sensors and IOT devices or IOT capabilities within a building of the static data. So anything that you can actually kick with your foot or touch that sits within a building and the spatial data, which actually gives you the context within an asset to be able to make decisions and understand what devices relate to where and what impacts stem from those devices. Probably the simplest way that I could start to explain it, is we aggregate the live static and spatial data that sits within the build environment to drive better insights and better building performance. It's a really holistic play really focused towards a smart building and all about visualisation of data and digitalization of data.

Kylie Davis: (05:04)

Okay. So do I use or need of the digital twin from the beginning of a building from its conception and design, or can I retrospectively create a digital twin?

Chris Omeissah: (05:18)

You can do both. I mean, Willow works with both existing buildings and new buildings. But obviously the vision that we see as a company is that digital twin will be the central operating model for large landlords. So when the building crosses design and construction and moves into operation, the digital twin is used as the interface. Which houses all the data and all the alignment between the data and the assets. We're seeing a lot more growth, obviously in the new build phase. A lot of developers are seeing it as non regrettable to take, a Willow twin or digital twin solution on at that stage. Because there's certain benefits that you get throughout design and construction, which are lost at the point the buildings are handed over historically.

Chris Omeissah: (06:03)

So what we're doing is almost bringing those two worlds together. So design and constructions, all the good work that we can leverage as a byproduct of having a BIM model, which I can get into a bit later, can actually be utilised throughout operation and serve the needs of the landlords. That's really where I guess our focus is, on crossing that chasm between design and construction and operations of an asset.

Kylie Davis: (06:30)

Okay. Just so I'm really clear, a digital twin is capturing all of the data that is created when a building is designed and what traditionally that data gets lost once it's built. And then traditionally you would have to either go back and find it again, or double handle to dig it out and pull it out or?

Chris Omeissah: (06:56)

Yeah. It's very close, I guess, very similar in the sense that throughout design and construction, there's typically something called a Building Information Model. Which helps the contractors and subcontractors understand what data's required or needs to be validated throughout the process of construction. So where the big challenge was with this concept of BIM and FM, which is BIM and facilities management was really around the interoperability of the data. Can the models be updated? How do we actually use the data? How do we actually generate the insights to be useful in operations?

Chris Omeissah: (07:31)

And that's where, I guess the chasm that Willow crosses. We do a lot of the work to caption, audit the data throughout design and construction, building handover, and commissioning of the asset. But then we use that data or that base model, so the live, static and spatial data, to start to drive use cases and insights throughout the building's operation. Which are linked to business decisions, linked to building performance, linked to occupant experience. We are almost, see us as a source that centralises the data, structures the data then generates insights from that data during the building's... ultimately throughout the building's life cycle.

Kylie Davis: (08:09)

Okay, awesome. So I'm just kind of seeing it two ways. Traditionally, a whole lot of information and data would be identified and created as part of a building's design and construction. But traditionally that, once the building was built and sold and handed over or whatever it would, that data would drop or get lost or not be used. But by hanging onto that data from the start, you're then able to, like sort of a metaphor for the moment, COVID hits and you've built a 25 story commercial building with just offices in it. You would be able to then model some of your decisions or model some of the data that you've got from that building to look at, well, what else could we do quickly, easily using the layout or the format that we've got.

Chris Omeissah: (08:55)

Correct, and I guess that's the... I mean, that's one certain example or one certain use case. The whole challenge is there's misaligned incentives. Obviously the BIM models are created or led by the trade contractors, not the landlords who actually pay the contractors, or the funders behind them that pay the contractors. So there's ultimately been this issue about, even if the landlord knew what was going on within the asset, they wouldn't know what questions to ask. They wouldn't understand who holds the data, whether it sits with a third party, such as CBRE or JLL who manages their assets. So ultimately what we're trying to do is put the decision-making power back with the landlord to drive their own destiny. It's all about how do I actually understand what data is in my building, what data is useful for me as an owner of the asset.

Chris Omeissah: (09:43)

And I think you've touched on quite an interesting example there. COVID has been a real trigger for a lot of landlords to basically understand or build a solid strategy around their data and their information within the assets, or which historically has been kept in Excel spreadsheets by third party contractors on the ground and so forth. There's been a lot of mismanagement of data, no real alignment with what it takes to build a digital twin and that's why I go back to saying, it's really about how do we design digitally end to end. And how do we help landlords actually control sort of the vast sources or multiple smart building technologies that are coming into the built environment every single day, and we'll get onto that a bit later when we talk to, I guess, more of the features of what the Willow twin actually offers.

Kylie Davis: (10:36)

Okay, cool. All right. Do commercial real estate agents like digital twins very much? Because they're often the gatekeepers of that info.

Chris Omeissah: (10:47)

Commercial real estate agents, we don't really... It's less the agents, more the facility or asset managers that would hold more of the building data. I think obviously the agents would do a lot when it comes to leasing the space or any leasing or tenancy data that we might be able to capture. But we typically find that, and this is part of why there's been a slower adoption of digital twins as a concept. There's so many different stakeholders within the built environment and the twin as such a revolutionary concept or transformational concept really needs to service everyone from the investors, to the operators, to the occupants within a building. And that's what I think is truly unique about what Willow is doing at the moment.

Kylie Davis: (11:32)

Okay. So what else does Willow do? It's about digital twins, that's the USP, but once we've got that data, what happens after that?

Chris Omeissah: (11:40)

Yeah, once we align and structure the data, Willow then looks to build upon use cases. How do we leverage smart building technologies or any IOT capabilities to look at. Initially it was thought that it was all around energy preservation, but more recently we're seeing this drive towards sustainability. How do I ensure not only my assets sustainable, what my portfolio of assets are sustainable. How do I ensure I can track or measure occupancy or space utilisation within the asset? How do I better serve my tenants needs by understanding what the access control data or the number of people that are entering the space. So we're seeing different types of use cases, which is what we call them, or modules, which we deploy with our current customers. Which basically helps provide a bit more of a tangible idea to what a digital twin is and does.

Chris Omeissah: (12:41)

Just to recap that, I'd really explain it as firstly aligning all your building data, all the live data, static data and spatial data. And then learning how to generate automated insights, better analytics and reporting, customised reporting based on any business decision that the owner of the twin wants to make. So that's really the core value that a twin drives in office.

Kylie Davis: (13:05)

Okay. So I've heard of other PropTechs out there that are capturing the data and turning it into single dashboard and all that sort of stuff. Is that's not a digital twin that's just aggregating data, or it's a dashboard, or are they kind of in your competitive set?

Chris Omeissah: (13:24)

No, I think it's and this is part of the challenge, If you get a specialist HVAC provider, or high tech analytics provider, or specialist occupancy tracker. Part of the issue is it loses in terms of where the data feeds back to, its very purpose to that point solution. So it doesn't actually take in the relationship with the physical asset. So someone that uses it purely for scanning the HVAC systems or understanding what types of analytics are required to reduce or increase the load, isn't actually aware of the contextual or any of the other matters that surround the use of the asset. So one of the inherent benefits of the digital twin is we start with the entire physical asset itself and we map the devices to, and plot those data points on the asset themselves.

Chris Omeissah: (14:19)

We're able to actually draw cause and effect and understand the relationships between different technologies, between the full building breathing use versus a point solution provider that albeit would still benefit from the value of twin offers, but would only be looking at it through their lens. So it's definitely... What that's mean in really simple terms. Willow connects all these different, and we provide almost a foundation for the building, the digital layer foundation for the building. So these points solution can actually link the data back to the actual use of the building.

Kylie Davis: (14:55)

So it's not siloed?

Chris Omeissah: (14:56)

Yeah, correct.

Kylie Davis: (14:57)

Yeah. Okay, cool. Okay. So how big an issue is... how big a problem is this that needs solving? In Australia and globally, how much can digital twins help us?

Chris Omeissah: (15:13)

I think digital twins is a concept has been around for quite a long time.

Kylie Davis: (15:22)

Is it?

Chris Omeissah: (15:22)

Yes.

Kylie Davis: (15:22)

And yet I've never understood it.

Chris Omeissah: (15:24)

In several different industries and you're not alone. I think we're finding that, even my time with the business, it's really been enjoyable to see people understand and learn how a digital twin differs, or how it can be applied and how they can apply a mindset where they don't stick their head in the sand, but actually try to understand what value this company can provide or this concept can provide. I think just going back to the question, how big of an issue is it. I think now more than ever the reason for the slow adoption has been typically buildings have been valued at multiples of NOI, or with fairly basic no real high risk of failure of a building.

Chris Omeissah: (16:07)

If a building shuts down, I guess the point I'm making here is if a building shuts down tomorrow there's no huge impact on the asset itself, apart from obviously the income. But that doesn't happen with an oil rig or with a different type of critical infrastructure where, or something like even when you go back to the origin of digital twins using it in space or mirroring systems when you're not in close proximity to them. There's a different type of benefit and a deeper different type of risk appetite, which buildings haven't historically offered.

Chris Omeissah: (16:41)

I guess the point I'm making here is, now that buildings are starting to move into this state of flux. They're becoming unpredictable in use, unpredictable in income, unpredictable in value. We're seeing more and more landlords who even though we're in the midst of a global pandemic, it's really the time that they need to start spending money to work at, how do they actually shift their operating model and get rid of the processes which have really plagued real estate for a long period of time. When I talk about processes, I'm talking about storing a static asset information in Excel spreadsheets, in plant rooms, in folders. Where facility's manager has to walk down there and go locate a manual, or a submittal, or something to do with a piece of equipment to then go and repair it.

Chris Omeissah: (17:34)

It's a very manual, labour, intensive error written processes. We're ultimately automating and bringing those processes into the cloud. So someone can literally log into their computer, go and source the exact component, whether it's a Viv device or any type of system that they can go and utilise. They can actually access it in a cloud-based system. And the building's data is all stored there as well. I guess, globally where there's been more of a push for digital twins from what I'm seeing is really around data compliance. So how does a landlord ensure that all their data's compliant? How do they manage their risk across their portfolio? Forget the fact that putting a digital twin on an asset gives you this sort of integrated solution design, where you don't know what it could be used for in the future, but as long as you have your data all in one simple place, you can then activate any use cases. New technologies come online or become interesting to landlords.

Chris Omeissah: (18:34)

One of the big issues we're seeing at the moment is really around, how do I eliminate the risk of poor decision-making, shape buying complete data sets. How do I bring all my portfolio governance into a single pane of glass. And I guess that's really where the digital twin has its tangible benefits. Bringing it right back to how do I track all the historical data that's being, I guess, utilised or is available in every building. That's really where, I guess the problems that a digital twin solves for or why digital twins are important, are really coming to the fore. so hopefully that... Sorry, that was a long reaction.

Kylie Davis: (19:17)

No, no, no, no, no. I'm fascinated by it. And what we might do is there's quite a lot of... You're mentioning quite a lot of acronyms. So I'm going to grab some of them, put them in the show notes for those who aren't quite sure.

Kylie Davis: (19:28)

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Kylie Davis: (20:06)

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Chris Omeissah: (20:45)

Yeah, so NASA was actually the first to dabble with this type of pairing technology. Basically the precursor to today's digital twin as far back as the early days of space exploration. The question that they would ask themselves is how do you operate, maintain, or repair a system or an aircraft, which you want within physical proximity of. And hopefully that gives the audience a bit more of a rational understanding behind why are we trying to move or push this concept of a digital twin within the built environment? So that was the challenge that NASA research department had to face when developing systems that will travel beyond obviously earth in that situation. And I guess when disaster struck Apollo 13, it was the innovation of mirrored systems, which actually allowed the engineers and astronauts to determine how they could rescue the mission.

Chris Omeissah: (21:41)

And I guess that's now been permeated throughout many different industries. We see it in the oil and gas industry. Digital twins are quite sort of mainstream concept we're seeing. We're doing a lot of work within mining infrastructure, toll roads, everything up to cruise ships that we've started to look at as well. So we're seeing that, and it goes back to that concept of high risk of failure, where we're seeing more of a damning need for a digital twin. And now real estate starting to get, there albeit it's a slow, but we're seeing more of an appetite to explore digital twin.

Kylie Davis: (22:17)

There's great scene in the Apollo 13 movie where they tip the box out of... You like, you've got to basically get them breathable oxygen, and this is what you've got to work with, right? Yeah. So now you've got this data, you need to make the building COVID safe, go.

Chris Omeissah: (22:33)

That's right. So no, but it's quite fascinating when you look at it through that lens. Because ultimately I guess if the built environment was stable and predictable, there's almost more of a case here to say that we don't really need a digital twin for our asset. But now that a digital twin is really the next rational capability, next to IOT. So how do I leverage all the IOT within my asset? And how do I bring it into a single pane of glass or single source of truth that's centralised? And that's really where the concept of a digital twin in real estate is starting to become a lot more commonplace and required.

Kylie Davis: (23:18)

And so if you zoom up a bit higher, if you've taken a view a bit higher than that, and you've got a whole bunch of buildings or a whole city of buildings that have all got their own digital twins. I'm assuming you've then got a digital twin city that you can start to do some really cool things playing with the data at that level.

Chris Omeissah: (23:37)

Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely possible. And you've seen sort of certain other providers that have been able. I think there was a company out of New Zealand that modelled Wellington city and have called it a digital twin city. So you're seeing different types of applications of it. I guess the critical point to understand is what are they trying to achieve with this digital twin. In our world, it's really about the granularity of the data. How do we drive better business decisions? How do we improve the performance of the asset? And how do we understand the behavioural and the occupancy trends within an asset, as an example, when it comes to the use of space.

Chris Omeissah: (24:14)

I guess when you talk about every building having a, let's say a Willow twin on every single asset, I mean the use cases you could drive from a city planning and placemaking perspective would be enormous. But ultimately it comes down to the vision and the objective of why the data needs to be digitalized, visualised, stored in the cloud. And what insights are we trying to get out of the data, and that's really what we're focused on is as a company.

Kylie Davis: (24:44)

Okay. Awesome. Okay. So what's your business model? How does Willow work?

Chris Omeissah: (24:50)

Yeah, so Willow works based on the stage of engagement. If I take you through a new development or new building, for example. So Willow split into... We've got a whole team of software developers and engineers, software engineers. Along with actual project managers and digital engineers. So we have a digital enablement and engineering capability. That goes on a new development, right at the beginning of design to set out the digital twin standards or the ontology for digital twin and audit the data that's captured through the one-time in a building's life where it's actually coming together.

Chris Omeissah: (25:26)

That's ultimately a role that's played by Willow as a services component. And we then have a SAS software platform, which activates as soon as the building's commissioned or becomes operational. The digital twin acts as a web browser interface, which is used by several different stakeholders. Whether they're asset managers, C-level executives or tenants within a building, where they can access certain data sources that have been aligned for their needs. It operates as a bit of a razorblade. You almost have the services component for new builds, which allows us to audit and structure the data. So think of that as, how do I actually get the foundation right to build a twin, and once the data is being captured and verified or validated we activate the platform, the software platform.

Kylie Davis: (26:22)

Right, okay. And so if I've got an existing building...

Chris Omeissah: (26:25)

Yep.

Kylie Davis: (26:26)

There's obviously a big data capture play as part of it.

Chris Omeissah: (26:29)

Correct, yeah. So it's the same process, same mindset. I guess it's a bit more of a different type of engagement, given the fact that we'd go in there to retro fit a building with a twin which is very possible. Understand what use cases or what data is available on the twin. But that's been one of the fascinating things about Willow is they're the only company or smart building platform that's using Microsoft's, the global partner for Microsoft and their digital twin platform. And working on most of the iconic buildings globally at the moment. There's a lot of buildings there where they're historic records, which have been retrofitted or captured in the Willow twins. It's definitely, I guess the same method or same process, but you're dealing with two different types of scenarios.

Kylie Davis: (27:17)

Okay, cool. So how big is Willow? Are you Australian, are you global or, it sounds like you need a lot of people for that.

Chris Omeissah: (27:25)

Yes, Willow is one of the fastest growing companies in Australia from a, I'm proud to say from a PropTech perspective. Over 200 employees now started in Australia in 2017 and have now grown to global officers over a mere, a large employee base in the US as well. We're tending to focus on the US market and the Australian market as our core markets, but obviously Europe. There's been a lot of, sort of investment from the, I believe it's the European Commission or something similar, may have forgotten the name. But we're seeing a lot of interest in pushing to use digital twins globally at the moment. We've got a really agile operation, but albeit I think we're across 20 plus countries. So yeah, that's the extent of my knowledge.

Kylie Davis: (28:21)

Yep. No, that's cool. And when did you start, 2017?

Chris Omeissah: (28:24)

The business itself, 2017 and 10 years before that, I think one of the ultimate advantages of where this business has come from is it understands real estate. And was originally a digital architecture and digital engineering firm for the 10 years prior to turning into a software platform or smart building platform in 2017. It's got a long history in the space and ultimately that's what's marking the growth of the platform.

Kylie Davis: (28:54)

Okay. And so if I'm a tenant inside of a building that has a digital twin with Willow, how is my experience different to anyone else's in an nondigital twin building?

Chris Omeissah: (29:07)

I think it's the availability of the data. I mean, as a tenant in the asset, you're interested in different types of use cases compared to a building owner. You're interested in the use of the space within my tenancy. You're interested in the booking room, meeting room system, or I've got that wrong. But the booking meeting rooms and the use of desks. You're interested in different types of use cases, which become more powerful through the lens of a twin. Because you have all the data that can be captured and centralised in the one platform. So such things as when I talk about occupancy or the use of space, are now becoming critical requirements to tenants who are assigned to work at, how do I actually get more people back in the office or something?

Chris Omeissah: (30:00)

Willow hasn't really had that issue. It feels like we've had a great operating capacity for a while during COVID. But there's a lot of tenants out there, large banks, large telco companies, which are struggling to try and identify what insights do they need together, so people feel like they can come back to the workplace. Employees feel that not only can they come back to work in a safe and inspiring manner, but it's also a healthy environment. There's also an availability of different areas. There's going to be a lot of change, we're already witnessing with the different resizing of space.

Kylie Davis: (30:40)

Can you, answer the question in advance? Can we bring our employees back to work and get them all up and down in the lifts, without it taking four hours with social distancing?

Chris Omeissah: (30:51)

Yeah. So that's another a huge use case at the moment around the use of lifts. Now whether a twin will overtake the lift operating system, I'm not quite sure, and I don't think we would. But there's definitely use cases which we're looking at, which allow for contactless entry into buildings. Understanding that the capacity of lifts and booking lifts and the actual, trying to avoid the situation where the lift stops at every floor and everyone looks inside it as a death trap.

Kylie Davis: (31:22)

Yeah. And if anyone coughs...

Chris Omeissah: (31:28)

Exactly, right. I mean, this is what's showing that there's going to be a huge change.

Kylie Davis: (31:33)

I shouldn't laugh, I'm sorry.

Chris Omeissah: (31:34)

No, it's all right. But it's definitely a consideration that we've looked at. So the ability to call the lift from your mobile phone, instead of touching the touch pad that everyone uses. The ability to actually better improve that experience. It's a huge factor on whether people will come to work or not in this current day and age whether we like it or not. So having the twin on that building where the lifts are being used actually allows you to understand all that data and get the movement data within the building. So it's very much, I guess, significant to a tenant who wants to understand the application of that further and the movement of their people through the space.

Kylie Davis: (32:15)

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Kylie Davis: (32:59)

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Chris Omeissah: (33:37)

I think it's going towards... I mean, it's been a slow adoption of digital twins. I mean, the concept has been around for quite a long time. I genuinely think it's because there hasn't been a high risk of failure with shutting down a workspace, this is my own personal opinion of course, but you can shut down at school and the lights will turn on the next week, right? Even if you shut it down for a week. You can't do that with critical pieces of infrastructure. Now that there's been a whole change, I guess, in the way buildings are valued which is a whole another topic we can get into at a different time. The way landlords traditionally lease or sell space is all about human experience. Now it's not really about the price per square metre, which it was historically.

Chris Omeissah: (34:21)

I think the next five years will hold a greater focus on the nuts and bolts of data engineering, data visualisation. And that's what underpins a twin, so I maybe a bit biassed, but ultimately if I had to make it very simple, landlords and operators of buildings need to have a really solid strategy around the management of their data and the information within their space to be able to generate better business decisions. I think what we'll find is a clarity around the impact of other emerging technologies. One thing we haven't really gotten onto is the fact that we're giving a basic foundational data structure to build use cases off, means that any new IOT device that comes in, any new PropTech that actually emerges and becomes useful for a landlord can actually plug into the data set, that's being the digital twin that's on the building and integrating all the disparate sources.

Chris Omeissah: (35:17)

So it avoids landlords having to only look at it through the lens of this new PropTech and say, we can actually have a plug and play relationship with you. So we become almost like a marketplace for all these different PropTech companies which are looking to get access to the building data. I think what you'll find is... What that really means is that we're going to get a clarity on the impact of AI and automation on the built environment, the next three to five years, I think. And I think there'll be a real focus on solving the genuine inefficiencies in real estate so...

Kylie Davis: (35:50)

Well, I look forward to that. Sorry, going on.

Chris Omeissah: (35:56)

I was just talking more about the operational inefficiencies within the space. A huge focus on cyber at the moment and data compliance. How do I actually ensure that I have the right governance or risk framework that captures the data within the asset? I think these are all going to be very core considerations moving forward in data governance.

Kylie Davis: (36:17)

Do you think, or do you see a need for, you know at the moment we have neighbours. Is it neighbours ratings sort of... Do you think we would get something like that, that would rate the digital or the data health of a building?

Chris Omeissah: (36:33)

There's certain players out there Kylie, that have started to move into that space. I think one that would be worth mentioning on the podcast was something like WiredScore, which looks at the digital infrastructure or digital connectivity of an asset. A neighbor's rating is quite a fascinating one because you're looking at the sustainability ratings or impact on Australian assets. But it's actually a, and sustainability is one of the big things that we're hearing from our customers at the moment. How do I measure my sustainability through the twin, how do I measure my indoor air quality, my energy usage, the temperature, the comfort levels within the building. How do I bring all those data sets together?

Chris Omeissah: (37:12)

So definitely I think there's also something called the Intelligent Buildings Index, which is correlated with the twin. And we're doing quite a lot of work with Microsoft in that space as well. So that's, I guess if your question was, will there be a digital twin rating score or?

Kylie Davis: (37:32)

If I buy a new dishwasher or a washing machine and it's got X number of stars on it. And at the moment when you say commercial buildings advertise, they often have their neighbours rating on it as well. Will there be a three to five star or a one to five star score that tells me how smart my building is?

Chris Omeissah: (37:50)

I think it's definitely something or how intelligent the building is. I think it's definitely something that will be on the horizon. I think everyone's moving in that space and it's typically been, I guess there's one element that actually looks at the sustainability within the building. There's the other that actually looks at attracting capital within, into the buildings based on their ratings. And I think the simple memo is, the stronger the data health, the stronger the data governance, the stronger the compliance around the building and the more digitally enabled your workplaces, that gives you the best competitive advantage to actually drive a better user experience within the asset and improve the building performance. And I think that's what a twin basically provides, and ultimately you're seeing landlords start to in that direction.

Kylie Davis: (38:37)

Because ultimately it ideally also means that your building's worth more than the same space and type of a building but without all of that.

Chris Omeissah: (38:46)

Correct. Yeah. The impact on the valuation of the building is another thing that we've explored. But ultimately it's about how do I capture this deluge of data that's sitting in loss repositories and how do I actually make that data useful. So data, data, data is not a new oil unless you know how to drill for it. And I think that's what a digital twin as a business model provides a landlord. So yeah, hopefully that answers your question.

Kylie Davis: (39:11)

Yeah, no, that's great. Sarah Bell from [IRRA 00:39:14] has a fantastic analogy, which is that, if you have data but you don't use it, if you just kind of hold it then it's dead data. It's literally like holding newspapers. It's just sitting in dusty. So I have visions of facility managers and landlords all over Sydney and Australia with filing cabinets full of, you know, holding filing cabinets or data that they'll never use, that is significant to the value of their property.

Chris Omeissah: (39:42)

It's not far off at all Kylie. I think I've seen many of them, and I think that's exactly the problem that plagues or landlords are facing at the moment is, how do I actually capture, organise and generate insights from the data that I actually care about. And that really can only be done when you do the hard work to understand where you're starting from. And that's what a digital twin actually enables. It enables you to say, what custom benefits do I want to extract? What custom use cases do I want to look at? Do I need to track the occupancy, all the user space and how does that inform my decision making? So it's moving towards this whole world of automation and data intelligence. I guess that's quite exciting for us and yeah.

Kylie Davis: (40:30)

Awesome. So, Chris, this has been fascinating. What's the next five years hold for Willow?

Chris Omeissah: (40:37)

I think in simple terms, growth. I think 2020 was a really difficult year for everyone for various reasons. I think one thing we haven't touched on too much in the podcast, but definitely a cornerstone of the Willow business is really how closely we're working with Microsoft. And the launch of their new Azure Digital Twins version two. We as a business believe Microsoft will be a huge player within commercial real estate pro already is. And Microsoft-

Kylie Davis: (41:07)

All right. So where would we be without it?

Chris Omeissah: (41:11)

... Exactly right. So I guess Microsoft are really listening to us as the commercialization partner with customers to understand the key result areas, the key focus areas and where twin's genuinely driving value. I think for Willow, it'll be growth. It'll be better adoption in real estate. We found a great adoption across other sectors, but real estate's been one where we've been pushed to prove the value, and I think we will. And that's ultimately where I think we'll end up really just continuing to develop a great relationship with Microsoft and saying digital twins is almost like a mandatory norm for being able to manage, organise, and generate insights from data within the built environment. I think that that's where we'd like to be.

Kylie Davis: (41:59)

Fantastic. Well, Chris, it's been awesome having you on the Proptech Podcast. Thank you so much for your time.

Chris Omeissah: (42:05)

Welcome. Thanks Kylie.

Kylie Davis: (42:07)

Thanks. And thanks for explaining digital twins to me.

Chris Omeissah: (42:09)

Yes. Sorry, it took a while.

Kylie Davis: (42:11)

No, no, no, no, no, I'm glad. It was well worth the time. Thanks so much.

Chris Omeissah: (42:18)

Thanks Kylie.

Kylie Davis: (42:19)

So that was Chris Omeissah from Willow, an Australian business that has led the way in the creation of digital twins for our built environment, and which is now working to convert the commercial real estate industry. My favourite scene in the movie, Apollo 13 was where the engineers got that box of everyday gadgets tipped out onto the desk and told to build an air filter. It's such a powerful image that we can learn from in property. Having the data for our buildings available at our fingertips so that we can model and try new things without the expense, the drama, or the time that it takes to build things manually is one of the great advantages of digital twins.

Kylie Davis: (42:57)

COVID has been a real wake up call for landlords, for agents and facility managers in this space. How is your building going to perform when everyone turns back up for work. But you're only allowed to let four people in a lift at one time due to social distancing. Using digital twin technology, we can test and run scenarios to solve for these problems, before we have a lobby full of people angry at you and terrified of contagion. So now, if you have enjoyed this episode of the Proptech Podcast, I would love you to tell your friends or drop me a line, either via email, LinkedIn or Facebook.

Kylie Davis: (43:30)

You can follow this podcast on Spotify, Google Podcasts, and [grant 00:43:34] for Apple iTunes. I'd like to thank my audio support, Charlie Hollands and Sam Hollins, and the fabulous [Deo Escudero 00:43:41]. And our sponsors Direct Connect, making moving easy. Smidge Wines, exclusive wines by Matt Wenk. And HomePrezzo now part of active and making digital marketing easier than ever before. And if you are a PropTech, make sure that you join the PropTech association of Australia and join like-minded tech people who are passionate about the property industry and committed to improving the experiences in how we buy, sell, rent, manage, and build and finance property. Our awards are coming up and they are going to be awesome. So go to proptechassociation.com.eu. Thanks everyone, until next week. Keep on PropTeching.