Kylie Davis: (00:02)

Welcome to the PropTech Podcast. It's Kylie Davis here, and I'm delighted to be your host as we explore the brave new world where technology and real estate collide. I passionately believe we need to create and grow a sense of community between the innovators and real estate agents and property developers and sharing our stories is a great way to do that. Now the aim of each episode is to introduce listeners to a PropTech innovator who is pushing the boundaries of what's possible and explore the issues and challenges raised by the tech and how they can create amazing property experiences.

Kylie Davis: (00:35)

And this week, an inspiring and intensely interesting interview with Deb Noller, CEO of Switch Automation. By 2030, every building in Australia is going to be smart, connected, and digital. But if you own a portfolio of buildings whether commercial retail, industrial or residential, there are literally hundreds of different data sources out there from every device you've ever installed and every supplier that you use. So how do you pull all of that information into one place, harness the data from thousands of devices and use it to start to make proactive rather than reactive decisions about your investment?

Kylie Davis: (01:14)

Well, that's what Switched Automation does. Deb has used her background in Transport and Systems Engineering to apply it to property management and ownership, to enable the buildings that we work live and play in to become smart, connected, and more efficient and more responsive, effectively making them even better investments. Switch Automation were in the initial cohort of the Taronga Ventures, Real X, and have expanded into Asia with the help of that programme. So here to tell us all about it, Deb Noller, welcome to The PropTech Podcast.

Deb Noller: (01:49)

Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here.

Kylie Davis: (01:53)

It's wonderful to have you here. Now we always start on The PropTech Podcast, Deb, with an elevator pitch. So tell us the Switch Automation elevator pitch.

Deb Noller: (02:02)

Sure. We all know that sometime between now and 2030, all buildings will be smart, connected, and digital. But what everybody who has a portfolio of buildings today is dealing with is lots of buildings, lots of different systems, lots of different manufacturers, lots of IoT devices coming into the market every single day. Vendors, enterprise systems, and none of that information is in one place, so it's very difficult for large companies to harness that data and then to use it and to get visibility into performance and improve portfolio and asset performance. So that's essentially what Switch does.

Kylie Davis: (02:41)

So it brings all of that data together from, I guess, hundreds of different device-

Deb Noller: (02:46)

Systems, devices, yeah, other B2B integrations, and we bring all of that together, single pane of glass and giving people the tools for them to be able to manage that data comprehensively. So data compliance, data governance, et cetera, and then also the applications and the tools over the top of that to really dig in and use that in an extremely valuable way.

Kylie Davis: (03:13)

So why is that data valuable in commercial property? Like what's the problem that it's solving?

Deb Noller: (03:21)

Well, there's lots of different drivers behind it, and nobody ever goes on a smart building journey for exactly the same reason. So sometimes it's around saving on costs, because operational costs of buildings are quite hefty. Often it's driven by ESG goals for energy savings and improving the whole outlook on how people are investing money and how that money is being put to good use, and people are good custodians of that money. So it could be ESG, energy savings, it could be upgrading of capital outworks in a building, it could be managing your vendors. But by and large, if you look at people that have lots of buildings, they're not sitting in the buildings, they're looking across the portfolio and they just don't have that visibility.

Kylie Davis: (04:18)

And at the moment, our buildings are quite analogue, aren't they? They're quite kind of ... they're still done the way that buildings have always, we still work and live in them the way that we've always worked and live in them. Why do we need to be moving toward smart buildings and smart cities? What's the value in that?

Deb Noller: (04:38)

Well, I think there's essentially buildings use 40% of the world's energy, which means they contribute 40% of the carbon. So, I mean, that's a shocking statistic that in 2020, the buildings that we all occupy for 80 to 90% of our day-to-day lives are such poor performers when it comes to the environment and as such a drain on the resources of the planet. And we all should be just doing a better job of that.

Deb Noller: (05:15)

I think COVID has really focused on health and wellbeing of buildings and a lot of buildings have unhealthy indoor environments. And so I think that's become a real focus. I think there's an entire generation of technicians that are coming through that are not going to maintain our buildings the old way, the manual analogue way of walking around and looking at equipment and identifying things that are broken and determining how they're going to fix those. I think there needs to be a digital transition of skills and the whole industry, and like really at the heart of it, that just should be a better business being run out of real estate than what is currently, which is everybody is hosting their own data in a spreadsheet or an access database, or they're getting, pulling reports off a vendor systems or not doing anything at all, just basically making the numbers up. And if you think about that, it's a pretty woeful way of running a multi, multi, multi-million and sometimes billion dollar business.

Kylie Davis: (06:30)

Yeah. It's quite bizarre, isn't it? It's very reactive to, so you have to wait for a fault to happen before you are going to do anything about it.

Deb Noller: (06:37)

Yeah, exactly. So it's like waiting for your customers to complain before you put the workflow in process to fix the issues. And these are clients that are paying sometimes millions of dollars for a tenancy agreement. And you're expecting them to lodge the complaints of when they're too hot, when they're too cold, when the bathroom has plumbing issues, when light fittings are broken, when there's the elevators have stopped working. I mean, it's crazy.

Deb Noller: (07:11)

All of this should be a proactive ... and it actually should be predictive. So really it's about moving workflow around building maintenance from reactive, to proactive, to predictive. You should be able to actually determine that a building is drifting off its optimal performance and bring that building back without having to wait three months for the scheduled technician to have their call out, to turn up on site, to walk around and then identify, hopefully, identify that problem.

Kylie Davis: (07:45)

So the universe that we're looking at in this space is on one hand, really analogue buildings with data sitting in silos and coming in from multiple providers and then sort of being managed the best it can inside a spreadsheet. And under that model, we're never going to hit carbon emission goals or truly work to kind of save the planet through because our properties are taking up, I guess, or using so much carbon.

Deb Noller: (08:14)

Certainly, correct.I mean, that has even been identified. There's, the Paris Agreements are in place. Most of the countries around the world have subscribed to meeting those Paris Agreements, but within those countries, there are working committees. And one of the big challenges that's been identified that will stop us from meeting those emissions is heating and cooling in buildings. So heating and cooling in buildings is a identified innovation challenge for the whole world to solve if we want to make our Paris Agreements targets.

Kylie Davis: (08:51)

And so so what Switch Automation's doing is basically pulling all of that data into one spot so that you can basically say what's happening now. And then from seeing what's happening now, start to understand what's going to happen next and then start to actually plan and predict off that.

Deb Noller: (09:07)

Yes. So collecting the data once is one of the problems that we solve. So rather than everybody collecting the information that they need for the job that they're doing, whether you're a mechanical engineer or an energy efficiency, or some sort of certifier around Greenstar ratings ... Right now, if you went around any nation, globally, every single one of the services would be collecting that data individually for. So collect once . When you're collecting the information, once you can actually put a lot more effort into verifying and making sure that data is really has high integrity, sharing that data out with everybody, and then use it putting tools over the top of that data, to be able to derive really useful cost saving and environmental improvements in the performance of buildings.

Kylie Davis: (10:01)

Awesome. And so if every building, I mean, you're basically helping us build smart cities at Switch?

Deb Noller: (10:08)

Yep. That's true.

Kylie Davis: (10:10)

Yep.

Deb Noller: (10:10)

So we don't really care about the segment of the buildings or buildings are the same from our perspective. They're bricks and mortar walls, and then they have systems in them that help humans to occupy the buildings. And it doesn't matter whether you're talking about a residential building or a commercial building for office use or a school or a university or a warehouse or a aircraft hangar. The buildings still have systems that allow humans to go into those buildings and to occupy them for either recreation or residential or commercial use.

Kylie Davis: (10:51)

And so if every building was connected to a Switch Automation, how would that affect how we lived? How would it affect how we worked and lived in these buildings?

Deb Noller: (11:02)

Well, firstly, I think we would have real time metrics into what was going on. So in the post-COVID world, one of the things that landlords are really struggling with is how are we going to get people to come back to the office? Everybody has spent the last eight months working from home and how are we going to entice them back to the office? And some of that is really just around giving people real time metrics around indoor air quality, number of people in the building, the density of the people in the buildings. And it's really, everybody then makes a risk assessment on how comfortable they feel about going back into that building, whether it be a school or a university or a commercial building. So I think that's one of the great advantages of collecting information out of buildings is being able to provide real time KPIs for the right people.

Deb Noller: (11:58)

So if you think about a visitor to a building, who's standing in a lift lobby, waiting for the elevator, they're not going to spend more than 20 seconds, absorbing some message that's put onto a display. So that has to be really simple messaging, maybe just a big green tick around indoor air quality and that signals to them ... Whereas if you're a building engineer that's monitoring that building, you would want to know exactly CO2 levels on every floor, within each suite. You would want alarms on any of the spaces that have CO2 greater than 900 parts per million. You would want it to be measuring temperature and humidity. And so I think it's around providing different information to different stakeholders.

Kylie Davis: (12:42)

Mm, fantastic. And so how big are you guys at the moment? How big are you? How long have you been going?

Deb Noller: (12:49)

We launched this platform in 2012. We have a team of roughly 50 people. Our head office is in Denver, but we also have offices in Sydney. I'm based in Singapore. We have a development team in Lviv and also in Manila. So we're 50 people globally. We've raised $12 million US. We've got around 2,800 buildings on our platform and growing.

Kylie Davis: (13:20)

Fantastic. And so tell me a little bit about your background, because you're not from the real estate space originally, as I understand.

Deb Noller: (13:28)

Correct. So I studied a Bachelor of Commerce and majored in Computer Science. I really loved the Computer Science element of the degree and majored in that. And my first role out of university was programming. I met John, who's our co-founder, when we were both programming in a small software development company in Cairns, and we started our first business. Our first business was doing freight tracking for large mining companies that had very distributed purchasing environments. And they were losing sight of the materials for keeping projects on time on budget. And so we developed solutions that help them get real time visibility into which ship, which container, which aircraft, which loading bay, which truck. So they were able to identify where their materials were and if necessary to accelerate the delivery to site. We also interfaced into Indonesian customs so that we could clear a manifest, which allowed them to take the offloading of a ship from five days down to half a day.

Kylie Davis: (14:39)

Wow.

Deb Noller: (14:39)

So really huge organisational efficiencies. And that's where I became incredibly fascinated with the way that technology could help large organisations become just better businesses. So this is back in the '90s when large companies were transitioning from handwritten bookkeeping and spreadsheets into big ERP systems, so I watched that transition.

Deb Noller: (15:09)

And when I first came into large enterprise building real estate companies in 2010, it was a revelation to me that I was looking at businesses that look like 1990. And that was really the opportunity that I saw is that we could bring technology to these companies in a way that allowed them to do a similar transition from as what they'd done with their financial systems, but with their real estate systems.

Kylie Davis: (15:38)

We do see in the real estate space that there is a lot of reliance on, like you said before, spreadsheets, whiteboards, very ... and manual systems that are reporting and recording all of this stuff. And it's fascinating to think that there are industries that have done this successfully before us.

Deb Noller: (15:58)

Yeah, exactly. Most industries have worked out some sort of digital transition and real estate is definitely one of the last big industries on the planet that really has to undergo that massive digital transformation. Which should not only have really positive environmental impact, it should also have really great client customer relationship outcomes, and also just great organisational transition from that analogue to digital.

Kylie Davis: (16:33)

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Kylie Davis: (16:36)

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Kylie Davis: (17:03)

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Kylie Davis: (17:28)

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Kylie Davis: (17:44)

You guys were recently part of the Real X Accelerator with Taronga Ventures. Tell me a little bit about what that experience is like? What did you get out of that?

Deb Noller: (17:53)

Yeah, we were invited to be part of that. I've known Jonathan Hannam and Avi Naidu for at least five years and watched their journey as they started their company and raised their fund. And they are very similar to any other startup entrepreneur. They are really entrepreneurs and just had a lot of admiration for the grit and determination that they brought to that journey and how they persisted through all the hurdles and obstacles that they had to.

Deb Noller: (18:33)

So when they launched their first programme in January of this year, they asked if we would participate. At that time, I was actually in New York, we were just completing the Metta Prop programme in New York and I was intending to move to New York. So we went into this programme ... I wouldn't say reluctantly, that's not the right word ... but we went into it, not really understanding what we would get out of it. I went into it more because of my personal admiration for Jonathan and Avi more than what I thought, which would get out of it and their connectivity, I think, into the Australian real estate market. What I didn't realise was that COVID was going to hit so dramatically in Marc and that ...

Kylie Davis: (19:29)

[crosstalk 00:19:29] ever did.

Deb Noller: (19:30)

Yeah, and that I would be relocating to Singapore. And what that programme has brought to me obviously is just an enormous, valuable high net worth network, right across Southeast Asia, which has been really quite a windfall for me and our company, which I wasn't expecting to get out of that. I mean, one of the things that all founders get out of those programmes is just connectivity to other founders. And that is just so valuable. There's nothing, there's nothing on earth, like being a startup founder, and when you meet other startup founders, you just, it's just a really valuable network to have.

Kylie Davis: (20:14)

Hmm. What are some of the biggest challenges that you've had as an entrepreneur?

Deb Noller: (20:19)

Finding a way when there is no way.

Kylie Davis: (20:22)

Yeah.

Deb Noller: (20:22)

So that's a famous line from Ben Horowitz's book called The Hard Thing About Hard Things, and it's a book that I always recommend to every startup founder. But it's basically saying your job as a startup founder is you really only have two or three things to do. One of them is to make sure your company doesn't run out of money, and the other one is to hire great talent. And then the third thing is to find a way when there is no way or often, the, certainly the financial part of it is that, you know, finding a way when there is no way.

Deb Noller: (21:03)

So it's just resiliency and not giving up and keeping hold of the dream and keeping the dream alive. And it's a real roller coaster. There's lots of ups and downs, and sometimes those downs are a pretty deep trough and nobody else can really understand what that's like. And it's pretty horrendous for your family and friends to watch that, too, by the way, because they feel incredibly helpless. It's really all on you to solve that. So that, yeah, the capital raising, I think is particularly difficult and I think all startup founders find that difficult and I think female founders find it even more difficult.

Kylie Davis: (21:48)

Mm. So through Real X you've got an awful lot of introductions and connections with Southeast Asian building developers and building owners, if you could rate for ... Like, I'm interested to hear, because I observe in the commercial real estate space in Australia that very big companies, very long sales cycles for startups, which can be very hard when you're so flexible and nimble, and so like getting into a really long contract period or due diligence and all of that stuff can really slow down innovation. So out of the Southeast Asian nations, who do you think is embracing this, the smart city stuff that you're, that you're enabling through Switch, the best and where would you rate Australia on that?

Deb Noller: (22:40)

Yeah, that's a really interesting question. So Australia adopted things like Neighbours really early on. So that actually gave Australian developers this false ... Real estate owners and operators, I believe it gave them this false sense of, "Well, we've already done that," when it came to digital buildings and building performance. When in fact they hadn't, they'd done a fair bit around measuring the energy performance of their buildings. And they'd done a fair bit around how to convert those buildings to a better energy profile through energy procurement and converting to LED light fittings, for example.

Deb Noller: (23:30)

So they they'd done some, they'd gone a long way towards making their buildings more performant from an energy perspective, but there's still so much to be done around digging into building systems and understanding whether those buildings are optimised or not. So, yeah, we hired through 2015 through or still doing it, really talented mechanical and energy engineers, and they were ... From, in the US I'm talking ... and when they would come out to Australia, they would be incredibly frustrated with the conversations that they would have with some of the Australian market that was "Oh, well, we've already done that." Like, "You haven't done that at all."

Kylie Davis: (24:16)

Because smart buildings are more than just energy aren't they?

Deb Noller: (24:18)

Exactly, exactly. So smart buildings around occupant experience around the digital skills of the FM teams and the operators and the ... I mean, there's just so much more to smart buildings than energy performance. So I don't think anybody's leading the way to be honest. I think the whole industry globally is a laggard. I think there's a lot of PropTech companies that have amazing tech. They almost all have the same problem. How do we get these building owners and operators to go faster, so that big companies are not killing small companies? Which is, it's a real issue.

Kylie Davis: (25:02)

Yes.

Deb Noller: (25:02)

Large companies wasting time and money doing pilots, endless bright ... what I call a bright, shiny thing, pilots, which is not a strategic move into a digital journey for your portfolio. It's just basically looking busy and ticking the innovation box because I'm doing trials of seven different digital technologies or IoT devices. Well, that's, that's not going to end up taking your portfolio on a journey. Yeah.

Kylie Davis: (25:38)

If you were a building owner working in the real estate space, how would you be doing it, Deb? How would you be looking at it?

Deb Noller: (25:44)

Yeah, well, so you have to start with the end in mind.

Kylie Davis: (25:46)

Yup.

Deb Noller: (25:46)

So in 2030, what would we expect from our buildings? And if you work back from that, you can come up with a plan that every year you make another step towards that journey and you end up in the right place. So it's all of the data in one hosted environment under your control, where you own the data and it's got great governance and compliance and privacy controls over the top of it. That all of the technologies that you select contribute towards that data store, that that data store is open so that you can add any application over the top of it, whether it's fault detection or visitor engagement or tenancy apps, that you're building a team that are having a really strong digital transformation. Because if you think about the next generation, and if you ask them to walk into any large real estate company today and look at how they were doing their work, most of them for a start would roll their eyes and go, "You've got to be kidding. I've got a smart phone that's smarter than the building. And you're expecting me to do this for my job."

Deb Noller: (26:59)

Whereas if you think about talent retention and take, hiring the greatest talent on the planet and retaining that talent, that's all about providing them with the careers that's going to have really great growth. And this is an industry that's going to have enormous growth. So I would be starting immediately on starting to hire that digital smart buildings team. Because I think if you get in early, you've got to have a group of people that are going to have some enormous wins. I would be hiring a couple of data scientists. Yeah.

Kylie Davis: (27:35)

Yeah. Fantastic.

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Kylie Davis: (28:45)

So what's the competitive landscape like for this smart building and smart city technology that like you're creating and for Switch?

Deb Noller: (28:55)

PropTech or real techs, no, property technology or real estate technology is an incredibly convoluted, noisy, difficult space for most people to unpack. All of the companies appear to be very similar. We all look alike. It's very difficult for people on the other side of the desk to assess the differences between these companies. And that's one of the other reasons that PropTech has emerged quite slowly is the buyer ... the buying skills within, or the assessment for technology skills within real estate companies is not necessarily as strong as it should be.

Deb Noller: (29:43)

So yeah, it's, there's a lot of them, but at the same time, there has to be a lot of them. If you look at all of the big industries that were transformed and went digital, that it wasn't one app or one company. Like look at travel, how many different technologies do you access to be able to book flights, hotels, cars, Airbnbs, excursions, et cetera? I mean, that entire industry is very similar in the complexity and the size of it for as real estate. And so there's not going to be one company, it's going to be a whole ecosystem of collaborative and interconnected and interoperable technologies that will actually solve this.

Kylie Davis: (30:29)

Mm, yeah, agree. So over the next five years ... I know we're 10 years away from 2030, which is when we hope to be living in smart cities, I guess, and have every building smart, but as we get to there, what do you think the next five years are going to hold?

Deb Noller: (30:48)

Yeah, I think what this pandemic has done is really highlight just how backward the industry is in the adoption of tech. So I think this is-

Kylie Davis: (31:01)

I find it amazing that one of the things that's holding us back from going into big commercial buildings is anxiety around the elevator. Like we're worried about, they're worried that if you go in and you'll catch COVID in the lift because people are touching the buttons or in a small confined space. And in fact, they can't get enough people up and down the building if they maintain distancing and stuff like that.

Deb Noller: (31:27)

Yeah, hong Kong, most of the buttons in the elevators within a month of COVID starting all needed to be replaced because people were using their keys to push the buttons.

Kylie Davis: (31:40)

Oh. Oh, dear. Sorry, I interrupted. So the next five years, what do you think is going to happen?

Deb Noller: (31:44)

Well, as I was saying, I think the pandemic has really highlighted the lack of remote control, the lack of visibility, the lack of information around what was going on. So if you're sitting in the middle of Singapore or Hong Kong or Sydney or New York, and you've got a global portfolio, the pandemic really highlighted that the tide just went out and you were caught swimming naked.

Deb Noller: (32:14)

You know, there was really no information around a building utilisation building occupancy. And I think that's actually highlighted why these technologies are really critical. I mean, if you think about the perfect world, the pandemic would have hit first week of March, and people would have known instantly what building occupancy looked like. And they would have been able to hibernate buildings instantly, saving themselves hundreds of thousands of dollars immediately. Not only are saving money on the cost, but also just that brand and reputational risk of being able to visibly see a building, a shut down at six o'clock in the morning, instead of lit up like a Christmas tree, even though it's ... everybody knows there's nobody in the buildings. So I think it's really kind of brought to the fore why these technologies are so critical.

Kylie Davis: (33:10)

Mm. And so what does the next five years look like for Switch? What's your future hold?

Deb Noller: (33:17)

Yeah. So we've set out to solve, or we've set out to build a global organisation, that's solving a global problem. So we really want to be the global standard. So we want to be the company that people talks about in a verb, you know, "Have you Switched on your buildings yet?" Your, you know, Switch it up or whatever it is.

Kylie Davis: (33:41)

Thank you for choosing a word that is actually a verb, not a noun, turn a noun into a verb.

Deb Noller: (33:48)

Yeah. Like Google.

Kylie Davis: (33:49)

Yeah.

Deb Noller: (33:52)

So what we're looking to ... and everything we do is at scale. So we think about how ... not how you make one perfect building, but how do you make a 100,000 near perfect or better buildings? And so everything that we do every day that we wake up, we think about scaling for hundreds, for thousands of buildings. Because that's really how we're going to make impact, so it's around consistency and standardisation and getting tools into the hands of not highly, highly specialised people, but the people that are owning and operating buildings so that this stuff can go much, much faster.

Deb Noller: (34:39)

So I would like to think that over the next five years we'll be just on-boarding buildings in the thousands to the point where it's very normal to have all of your buildings connected and all of your data accessible and people using that data and buildings hopefully not using 40% of the world's energy.

Kylie Davis: (35:04)

Yeah. Bringing that right down. And so, Deb, one last question. Is most of your business coming from building owners who are importing you in, or are you also connecting up with other technology businesses out there, who are saying, "We've got an IoT that should be plugged into Switch?"

Deb Noller: (35:20)

Yeah. We're starting to see more of that where somebody built a really clever sensor and doesn't necessarily have a platform. And so we're starting to see those partnerships, starting to see a lot of service companies that are looking for the tools that will transition their team from old school manual into that digital service delivery. So starting to see a lot more of that, I mean, up until from 2013 to probably a year ago, we, even though we knew that eventually our tools would be adopted by the industry. And that's what we certainly, when we first went to US, that was the way we were attempting to break into that market.

Deb Noller: (36:06)

But we just found that the market wasn't ready yet, and I call that the year I tried to sell Uber to the taxi drivers because taxi drivers have spent a lot of money on their business. They get up every day, they know how they make money. There's nobody eating their lunch. So they're just going to get up and do the same thing. But we actually had a lot of success selling direct. So we just did that while we waited for the market to evolve. But I think if we're truly going to be successful in reach, market reach, then we're going to have to develop some really strong global partnerships.

Kylie Davis: (36:41)

Fantastic. Well, look, Deb, it has been wonderful to talk to you again, thank you so much for your time and all the best of luck with them with Switch Automation. We'll include some contact details in the show notes.

Deb Noller: (36:53)

Thank you so much for having me real pleasure.

Kylie Davis: (36:56)

So that was Deb Noller from Switch Automation and I have to say the Prop Tech coming through in the commercial space at the moment is really inspirational. We're seeing solutions here that are solving genuine problems in the big building space that affect both the short and longterm investment return and which are significantly improving the experiences we have in these buildings and making life easier for the people who manage them.

Kylie Davis: (37:20)

But most importantly, they're driving the industry towards solving huge environmental and social issues in ways that are delightful, not difficult to do. And this is not a do good, a greeny altruism, not that there's anything wrong with that. But this is just good practical business sense with huge upsides for the planet and for our bottom lines, as investors. In such a light, the decision for any major building owner or developer to drag their feet on adopting these changes in preference for old school practises that commit everyone to ways that are expensive, laborious, inefficient, and slow, and they make life more uncomfortable and difficult for tenants, well, that borders on negligence in my view.

Kylie Davis: (38:00)

So if you're already investor in a [inaudible 00:38:02] , if you work in a development or commercial building company, if you're a tenant in a commercial building, start making a noise. Start demanding better. You do not need to wear a jumper at your cubicle on a day of 36 degrees outside, if your building is being run using solutions like Switch Automation.

Kylie Davis: (38:20)

So what do you think? Have you heard of other Australian or New Zealand Prop Techs working in this space? I'd really love to hear your thoughts. And if you've enjoyed this episode of The PropTech Podcast, I'd love you to tell your friends, drop me a line via email, Kylie@realcontent.guru, say hello on LinkedIn or on Facebook.

Kylie Davis: (38:37)

You can follow the podcast on Spotify, Google podcasts, Anchor, and Apple iTunes.

Kylie Davis: (38:43)

I'd like to thank my audio support, Charlie Hollins, the fabulous Jewel Escudero and our sponsors Smidge, Official Wines of the PropTech community; Direct Connect, making moving easy; and HomePrezzo, now part of Active Hype and making email marketing more easier than ever.

Kylie Davis: (39:02)

Thanks everybody. Keep on Prop Teching.