Kylie Davis:

Welcome to The Proptech Podcast. It's Kylie Davis here, and I'm delighted to be your host as we explore the brave new world where technology and real estate collide. It's so great to have you here and to share stories of innovation and opportunity across real estate, property, and building services, and the aim of each episode is to introduce listeners to a proptech innovator who is pushing the boundaries of what's possible across how we design, build, buy, sell, rent, and invest in property, and all of the associated behaviour and activities around that. Now none of this would be possible without our sponsors so a big shout out to the Direct Connect team, making moving easy, Dynamic Methods, the innovators behind the Forms Live and Realworks Forms, and the Proptech Association of Australia. Thank you for your support of the podcast.

Kylie Davis:

My guest this week is an exciting new proptech that is taking a completely different approach to technology that has been around for quite a while. It's Josh Callaghan, the CEO of Little Hinges, which uses virtual tour technology as a gateway to a deeper and richer digital marketing experience. Now, how intriguing is that as an idea? Josh has more than 20 years of experience across financial services, fintech and startups, including stints at Canstar and the REIQ, and Little Hinges was a startup winner in the inaugural Proptech awards last year for sales and marketing. What helped them win however wasn't the high adoption for a virtual tours created by COVID and the pandemic, but the insights and analytics that Little Hinges is able to extract from those tours. So, here to tell us all about it, Josh Callaghan from Little Hinges, welcome to The Proptech Podcast.

Josh Callaghan:

Thank you, Kylie. Great to be here.

Kylie Davis:

Yeah. Now, tell us your elevator pitch for Little Hinges, Josh.

Josh Callaghan:

Sure. Little Hinges, we're on a mission to digitise the property transaction to make that transaction easier for buyers, sellers, and of course, agents.

Kylie Davis:

Okay. So, what's your secret source in how you do that? Because that's a pretty general... A lot of people would have that as a mission.

Josh Callaghan:

It's a huge one. We do see it definitely as a multiyear, maybe multidecade challenge that we want to bite off. Really, where we've started that though is in virtual tours. It's sort of a simple place to start for us because we also see it as one of the biggest friction points in trying to purchase or interact with property right now. That's where we started.

Kylie Davis:

Okay. So, tell me a little bit more about that friction point. There's a lot of virtual tours out there at the moment, and we saw a big adoption of them during COVID. Why is Little Hinges different?

Josh Callaghan:

We think very differently about how virtual tours are used, and so we do think in terms of I guess we draw a lot of parallels from say online retail and e-commerce transactions, and also in trying to really deeply understand how consumers want to actually be able to transact, and in this case, then bring that into the property space. So, we see it very differently. Everyone's had that universal experience where they look at a property, they get really excited about it, and then they turn up to the open home on a Saturday morning only to be horribly deflated because it looks nothing like the property that they saw all glammed up online, and we also see that there's this enormous the other part of the friction. So, that's one part of the friction point.

Josh Callaghan:

The other part of the friction point is that my wife and I, excited about a property at nine o'clock or 10 o'clock scrolling through at our home at night, super excited, want to take the next step, and our only next steps or call to actions is essentially I either send off an inquiry to the agent of which about half of them go completely unanswered or I wait four days to turn up to a open home with 20 other, 30 other people, or these days, a hundred other people to get a 15-minute window of which I can and walk through to sort of make a million-dollar purchase decision. So, clearly, none of that works. Even though we've used physical inspections, and it's been probably the best tool in our arsenal up until now to qualify buyers and to bring them together and to have those belly to belly conversations, I think everyone admits, including real estate agents, that it just doesn't work well anymore.

Kylie Davis:

Well, there's too many bellies.

Josh Callaghan:

That's the problem exactly.

Kylie Davis:

Too many bellies to get that intimate, right?

Josh Callaghan:

Exactly. And so, it just becomes really inefficient. I guess it just, it creates a sour taste in the mouth of buyers, a really frustrating purchase process there. But then agents are inundated and overwhelmed as well with all sorts of tyre kickers and people who, they want to have more meaningful conversations, but to do that these days in particular, they need to go through a hundred rubbish conversations, you know?

Kylie Davis:

Yeah.

Josh Callaghan:

And so, we really see the first part of digitising the property transaction, so the first part of our mission is by creating that online parallel, so enhancing the physical inspection with the digital inspection and enabling that to do the heavy lifting of qualifying buyers and being able to just increase the value that the agent brings in terms of those real belly to belly conversations. We see that as the biggest nut that we can sort of chew off.

Kylie Davis:

Awesome. So, where does the name Little Hinges come from?

Josh Callaghan:

Little Hinges came from our co-founder actually and was inspired by something he'd heard around how little hinges swing big doors, and we really gripped that. We love it. It's sort of that idea that a relatively small team, certainly like we started with but even we're relatively small now, can have such an enormous impact way beyond what we should be able to. It's a nice analogy with the little hinges.

Kylie Davis:

Yeah. Awesome. So, what's the name of your co-founder just to give him a shout out?

Josh Callaghan:

Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah, Josh Kindred came up with that one.

Kylie Davis:

Awesome. Awesome. So, I just want to double back a little bit around how virtual tours improve that experience for agents and buyers.

Josh Callaghan:

So, there was some research that came out of realestate.com that sort of tracked people's excitement and engagement and a couple of other metrics as they go through the various stages of looking at a property or searching for property, and basically the point at which they found a property that they liked, their excitement was through the roof, their engagement was through the roof, their hopefulness was through the roof, and yeah. You're at this point then where there's a really natural digital conversion point, but nothing to convert to.

Josh Callaghan:

So, a lot of the experience of myself and also our other co-founder, Michael York, in the past has been around large-scale digital marketing engines and performance in terms of conversion. And so, we saw this incredible heightened level of interest or willingness or propensity to convert met with nothing in the backend, and then we sort of came across virtual tours, which were unbelievable in terms of the online engagement that they get. I mean, if you can get an average video view of 15 seconds or something in a marketing video, you're doing very well on an average or 30-second average. In virtual tours, we saw this piece of digital content that's getting more than three minutes on average, and it's not a passive three minutes. It's like people clicking around. They're quite active in it, and so you put those two things together. It was really exciting in why virtual tours is that logical next step in the process.

Josh Callaghan:

I think what's happened though is over the years because virtual tours I guess has been in the realm of photography businesses and in that sort of space, it's just been placed incorrectly in the sales funnel. It's been placed at that sort of right up the top of the sales funnel in sort of the consideration set and in where people are... Sorry, not consideration, in attraction I should say where people are trying to attract eyeballs into the property. It's not that at all. It's all about qualifying the buyers. So, that's where we've really thought about it differently and are helping agents position it differently to work as that qualification tool between the thousands of eyeballs that hit a property on your website, BDM, on your portal, whatever, down to how do we maximise the number of buyers that actually come through the bottom end.

Josh Callaghan:

And so, yeah, I guess it speaks very much to how do you create more buyers and more buyer competition. Well, right now, physical-only inspections shut off the 30% of interstate buyers that literally can't get to a physical inspection. It shuts off the 7% of international buyers that can't get to a physical inspection. So, clearly, there's this big opportunity for agents to increase the pool of buyers, improve the qualification of those buyers, and therefore, less time on market, better price for your vendors, easier process. You're not dealing with all the tyre kickers. So, yeah, so it's all of those things.

Kylie Davis:

Yeah.

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Kylie Davis:

So, if I'm understanding it correctly, there's been a tendency in real estate up until now to see virtual tours as simply one more piece of marketing content that needs to be created for that top end of the funnel, but what you guys are saying, or what Little Hinges' proposition is that actually, that's a really rich piece of engagement content that should be a little bit lower, that is basically lower down the funnel which-

Josh Callaghan:

Yeah, that's right. It should be your first conversion point, basically.

Kylie Davis:

Got it.

Josh Callaghan:

It should be sort of like I guess before you go out, even if you're talking to an interstate person, for example, or someone who can't make it to the property, before you go out and walk them through and spend time out at the property doing a FaceTime, and you're blowing an hour and a half of time for that one potential buyer which up until that point is only seeing glossed up photos. It becomes a really interesting conversion point to say, "Here, go and spend some time in here." You already know the buyer, so that's fine. Go and spend some time in here and have a look through.

Josh Callaghan:

We see it quite practically though as well. So, agents who use virtual tours as the call to action on their social media marketing, so far, I've not heard of any campaign... So, across the campaigns that we've done for agents or agents have done using our kit, it's more than doubled the performance of their next-best performing social add, and I think it's because it's... And it's not the technology that drives them there. I don't know. It's easy to get awed by great technology and immersive experiences and that sort of stuff. It's not about that. It's about if I'm in market for a property, I want to get access to it. Show me through and I'll do something. I'm used to all the tricks of lead capture and you tell me you're going to give me something and then I just see some more photos or something, or you're jamming me into a funnel. What we're seeing is that it actually responds or buyers respond really well to it.

Kylie Davis:

Okay. So, it's kind of almost like a martech or a marketing technology tool more than a, well, as much as a proptech tool, I guess.

Josh Callaghan:

Yeah, that's right, yeah. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I mean, all of our backgrounds are in marketing and in converting audiences, and so it's definitely the natural place for us to play.

Kylie Davis:

Yeah. Okay. So, what kind of analytics can you see through the back end of Little Hinges?

Josh Callaghan:

Yeah. So, look, when you look at say virtual tours, you can see things like where people have spent the most time in the property and that sort of stuff. To be honest though the stuff that gets people most excited or the stuff that's most valuable is actually our biomap. And so, it's basically just imagine a Google map but with a whole lot of pins dropped down based on the IP addresses of where visitors of that tour have come from, and I think the reason the biomap is so, yeah, people love it is because it immediately demonstrates the value of having a virtual tour as part of your sales campaign because there's always, regardless of whether it's a one-bedroom rundown unit in the middle of where or a beautiful 10-bedroom place on the coast of Australia somewhere, the bio map always has pins from all around Australia and often from overseas as well. What that clearly demonstrates to you, to the vendors in particular, is there is interstate and overseas interest in your property that we've been able to qualify and get interested into this property because we've got the virtual tour. So, it just really clearly demonstrates that.

Kylie Davis:

And who can see that? Can anyone see that or just the sellers and the agent?

Josh Callaghan:

Yeah. So, the agent sees that, and then the agent has the ability to share dynamic live updated reports with their vendor. We don't expose that to buyers or the broader market yet. We do aggregate it into sort of monthly reports that we send out around which states are getting interest from which other states and those sort of things, but we don't expose it to the front end. We think it's something that's probably best kept for the agent and the vendor.

Kylie Davis:

Okay. Okay. What I'm hearing from you, Josh, is that we're... So, virtual tours got hugely picked up during COVID because no one could get into a property to see anything while we were all in lockdown, but moving forward as we come out of lockdown, we should be looking at virtual tours as that engagement intention signal to help us be qualifying leads more than just thinking, "Oh yeah, I just have to build another piece of content, plus my floor plan, plus my videos, plus social media," plus, plus, plus, and it should be part of that integrated marketing. Okay, cool. So, how big are you guys now? Because I know you're still a startup, and you were winners in the Proptech Awards last year, so congratulations, yeah.

Josh Callaghan:

Thank you. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so look, we are probably just coming on two years old now, or just shy two years, and back then, it was sort of a few people. We're now 50 people all around the country.

Kylie Davis:

Wow.

Josh Callaghan:

25 of those are technicians based around the country. So, we employ our own technicians and have our own standards of capture there, and then the other 25 are in head office here in Brisbane. That is a lot of operations, bookings people, support, and obviously technology as well. So, development team, and UX, UI, all those sort of guys.

Kylie Davis:

Yeah. And am I right? you use Matterport as your virtual tour tech, don't you?

Josh Callaghan:

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yep.

Kylie Davis:

Tell me about that relationship.

Josh Callaghan:

Yeah. We have a great relationship with Matterport. We're actually their largest client in the Southern Hemisphere. We got some numbers out of them about a year ago now, I think it was March last year that showed that we were the largest virtual tours provider in Australia. In fact, we're larger than number 2, 3, 4, and 5 combined.

Kylie Davis:

Wow.

Josh Callaghan:

Look, we love Matterport. We think even though the technology, even though virtual tour technology has been around for 20 years or something, Matterport is the only one that provides a really decent immersive experience. Some of the others almost make me seasick when I jump in or you've got to jump from point to point, and it's just a bit clunky, and look, as far as ultimately where virtual tours go, even Matterport's just a step in that road because you look at some of the ways that people are creating immersive experiences, particularly for the unbuilt world, and you can see how much further even the Matterport type technology can go as far as creating a nice seamless walkthrough experience.

Josh Callaghan:

But yeah, we are a technology agnostic. We just happen to be a massive Matterport user because they're best tech. At some point in the future, that could be... I mean, right now, arguably, you can create a virtual tour on a phone, but the outcome is horrible, and you don't get that, as we've already spoken about, we really value engagement of the buyer. And so, you're not going to get a three-minute plus average tour experience out of a really poorly shot or poorly executed virtual tour. Yeah, but in the future, obviously technology changes, who knows, we might get it to a point where everyone can do it themselves on their phones and that's brilliant. So, right now we're Matterport. In the future, we're whoever's creating great virtual tour experiences.

Kylie Davis:

So, the Little Hinges platform then is kind of plugging in the virtual tours to give you the analytics and insights into what kind of engagement you're getting around your tours. Is that more where you guys are sitting?

Josh Callaghan:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's right. So, we're all about creating the technology that sits around our Inspect Now product which is coming out in a couple months' time is then ramping that up one step further, which is all around how do you actually identify your audiences, and then how do you create conversions so that the important thing is for virtual tours to really cement their spot as a mid-funnel qualification tool. Well, clearly, we need lead gating and lead entry on the way through so that you know who your buyers are, then we can do a whole lot of conversion optimization in different of ways of having various content engage the buyer on the way through towards either registering as a bidder, applying for a rental if it's a rental property, or making an offer on the house. And so, we see our role then and the role of Little Hinges externally to the virtual tour is about building and qualifying audiences.

Kylie Davis:

Right. Got it. Got it. So, you mentioned it sort of in passing before, but tell us a little bit about your background and the background of your founders.

Josh Callaghan:

Sure. So, yeah, so my background's, yeah, largely been in finance actually and a lot of driving tech in to solve just big problems I saw there. I was reflecting on this just earlier in terms of I think when you looked in the rear view mirror, it's easy to see a bunch of... So, I've managed to bring to market a bunch of world firsts and Australian firsts in terms of technology. So, for example, I built Australia's first totally online banking account application that went entirely through online. That was probably 20 years ago now, showing my age. Up until then, it was all sort of basically just, it was sort of mantronics that went to a form, built Australia's first and now largest CRM in stockbroking which actually aggregates the view of the customer across all of their holdings, derivatives, equities, cash, all that sort of stuff.

Josh Callaghan:

None of that was about what's a piece of technology I can take out to market. All of it was just there's an enormous problem here. In stock brokering, for example, the problem was the broker had to go to about six different spots to try and then aggregate holdings of a client, try and mash it into a PDF. It was horrible. And so, this is no different really with real estate. It's sort of like I'm seeing all of these friction points and broken parts of the property transaction all the way from we say from portal to PEXA. So, I'm just seeing an enormous opportunity there for us to not necessarily to build it all ourselves, but certainly to create the rails that enable that to be much faster.

Josh Callaghan:

To my co-founders, so yeah, Josh Kindred who I mentioned earlier, been long time in property, in real estate, in property development, and then also Michael York who is probably one of the best regarded performance marketers in the world. In fact, LinkedIn used to fly him around to talk to their biggest clients on how to create performance marketing using their platform and others, and he was head of digital for Flight Centre, and a bunch of other great companies. So, really, it's the combined I guess powers of those three that are the force behind Little Hinges.

Kylie Davis:

Fantastic. In the two years that the three of you have been pulling this together and growing at a phenomenal rate if you're now at 50 people, what are the biggest challenges and lessons that you've learnt during that time?

Josh Callaghan:

I think, yeah, definitely our biggest challenges has been scaling up a network of technicians out in the field. I think it's simply been our biggest challenge because none of us are experts in that. None of us have built it. We don't come from that sort of background. And so, there's been a lot of great learnings along the way. Ultimately, people are at the centre of everything and definitely at the centre of everything we do, and so I think that's bought us a lot of equity with our people to be able to sort of stick with us as we're all learning how to optimise that. Probably our biggest lesson was we probably expected to be able to wade into the real estate market the same way you can in many other markets, and you sort of look for those centralised spots in the market, be it a big franchise brand or a large technology platform or whatever and look to create partnerships that enable growth and scaling and all that sort of stuff, and the real estate industry is quite unique.

Kylie Davis:

It's trench warfare. You got to take it trench by trench, right?

Josh Callaghan:

It is 100%. It's person to person. We've even found a very limited level of influence at say an agency level as far as the selling principle versus the selling agents. It really is sort of selling agent to selling agent, and it's great. Once we get 15 minutes with them, we win their hearts and minds on how to use virtual tours and leverage it and why it's so great, but it's certainly a hard slog. It's definitely not as easy as some other industries.

Kylie Davis:

Yeah. No, no, definitely not, and I think that's a hallmark too of the residential real estate space. It's not like that in commercial where it's bigger end of town, but the downside of that is longer sales cycle.

Josh Callaghan:

Exactly. That's right. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3:

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Kylie Davis:

So, who are some of the clients that... Do you want to give us a shout out to some of your favourite or the clients that you're the proudest of winning over?

Josh Callaghan:

Like all good parents, I don't have any favourites. No, look, we have agents from basically every colour wearing every single brand name, just about. So, we're predominantly in capital cities though, and it's probably just logically when you've got a network of people and you're trying to have service areas and all that sort of stuff and create a same-day availability. It's very hard to do that in regional areas. And so, that's a whole other nut that we'll have to crack at some stage, but yeah, so all the big brands, we love them all equally.

Kylie Davis:

Yeah, okay. What's your roadmap look like? What's come down the pipe for you guys?

Josh Callaghan:

Yeah, so we've got Inspect Now coming out in a couple of months. And so, like I said, that'll be an incredibly great lead generator. In the same way that you have to sort of identify yourself on the way into a physical open home, this will be that mechanism for a virtual open home, but more importantly, it'll convert more of those people into offers or registered bidders and so on. So, we're really excited about that. We think that sort of that pinnacle piece to help us help the industry sort of put the virtual tour or that tool in it in the box where it needs to be.

Josh Callaghan:

Further down the path from that though, so we are looking at things like automated valuations of property. When you think about some of the existing AVM technology that's out there right now, it's looking at historical averages and looking at street and suburb and so on averages, whereas we get to see the inside of the property, and we also get to map that against buyer demand, real buyer demand. Already, we get more than 300,000 people a month coming through our virtual tours, and so we get to see what they like and what they're into. So, we think that really help enrich the automatic valuation methods.

Josh Callaghan:

But look, if you go all the way, we've sort of got a number of horizons mapped out, but we go all the way to what we call horizon X which is looking at things like the metaverse and how people might want to recreate their property or elements of their properties or favorited other properties around the world into their sort of digital experiences and online. We've got little stakes in the sand to sort of work out what that looks like in the future as well.

Kylie Davis:

Yeah, well, so that whole metaverse conversation is fascinating, isn't it? It's like, well, I can't afford the Taj Mahal, but maybe I can own it in the virtual universe.

Josh Callaghan:

Yeah, exactly. That's right, and we see that now with some of the NFTs and stuff, the idea, just this concept of a digital asset that can be sold many times, but also might be able to be constrained in terms of creating some level of scarcity and a whole interesting market out there. No doubt lots of water to go under that bridge in the next few years.

Kylie Davis:

I think what would be an awesome thing to do because I am going to confess that proptech junkie though, I am, it's one of those things where I go, "Really? Do I need it? Do I want it? Is it something I should be spending my money on?" But like all good innovators, you have to think not that'll never work, but what if it did work, and it would be awesome to get a group of some good brains in a room to actually just chew over what that could look like here in Australia and what we'd need to do to get ready for it. So look, if you're listening and you want to be part of that, drop us a line. We'll make it happen. We'll get Isaac involved and everybody, yeah, Sarah Bell, Shelli Trung. Anyone else wants to come along, let's chew it over.

Josh Callaghan:

Yeah, that's right.

Kylie Davis:

I have a theory too about virtual tours is that I've always struggled with them a bit because I have a back injury or neck injury that means I get carsick quite easily, but also having had two children, I've spent 18 months of my life in a constant state of nausea anyway. So, every time I put the tour on, I go... I'm looking forward to the tech getting better and better to compensate for that. So, what do you think the next five years holds for real estate generally, Josh? What's your crystal ball tell you?

Josh Callaghan:

Oh, look, I tend to shy away these days. Having made enough wrong calls in my time, I shy away from talking about which way the market's going, but I think what's going to be interesting for the industry will be whenever you've got a hot market like this, it does tend to sort of create a bit of bulge in the industry in terms of new agents coming into the market. I think that will have some challenges. Clearly, I guess when you've got an oversupply of agents, as an example, it is easy sometimes for vendors to almost just commoditize it, and it's whoever I like.

Josh Callaghan:

So, I think what will be interesting over the next five years is seeing how, in all of that noise, the great agents are positioning themselves. I'm going to be really interested to see how their positions, and I think technology is a massive part of that, but how they're going to be positioning themselves to make sure that when it all eventually thins out again which clearly it does, this is a cyclical market, a cyclical sort of industry, those great agents I think are going to come out with a lot more. It could be a real opportunity for some of them to reshape the way that property's transacted in Australia which is exciting.

Kylie Davis:

Mm. How do you find agent adoption? Do you think it's getting better, or what's your views on that?

Josh Callaghan:

Look, I think what's been great through COVID in particular, there's been a broader awareness of sight unseen buyers, and a lot of agents have found themselves short basically in terms of ways in which they can engage them, ways in which they can service them. And so, I do think that our technology and similar technologies will continue to be adopted. We obviously, as everyone does of course, get a whole bunch of standard objections as well, you know?

Kylie Davis:

Yes.

Josh Callaghan:

And so, we've just got to sort of chew through those. We know that this is an industry that once you hit the tipping point of enough agents adopting it, every agent adopts it. It's similar if you look back at the history of using [crosstalk 00:32:35]-

Kylie Davis:

Off plans.

Josh Callaghan:

Yeah, yeah, exactly, or using Photoshop. So, sort of it's all gradually emerging and become standard. I think our technology will go a similar way.

Kylie Davis:

QR codes, they only took, what, 30 years to take off.

Josh Callaghan:

[inaudible 00:32:52] that's right [inaudible 00:32:55].

Kylie Davis:

Yeah. Well, look, Josh, it's been absolutely awesome to have on The Proptech Podcast. Thank you so much for your time and telling us about Little Hinges.

Josh Callaghan:

Thank you, Kylie. Really appreciate it.

Kylie Davis:

Thanks.

Kylie Davis:

So, that was Josh Callaghan, CEO of Little Hinges, one of last year's winners of the Proptech Awards, and if you're an Australian proptech, make sure you get your entries in because the awards close on March 18, but that's an aside. So, what did you think of Little Hinges? I am a big fan of any technology that makes life easier for buyers, especially in the current climate. Virtual tours are different to videos in that they give you a sense of flow and allow you to really inspect and interact with a building in your own time, and Little Hinges has some great tools that allows users to measure and really dive into the details of a property. I also love that they just teamed up with Matterport rather than inventing the tech and have put their focus into the insights around that tech and the booking and the making of it really seamless.

Kylie Davis:

At the beginning of the pandemic, it was politic to say, and I got under a bit of pressure for this, to say, "Oh look, no one will ever buy a property site unseen," and to present this idea that the virtual tours and the like were really just helping agents and property managers out of the tough bind of lockdowns. Instead, we were encouraged to believe that once the pandemic was over, life would return to normal with physical-only inspections. But my question at the time was, well, normal for who, but what we consistently saw over the past two years is that there are some types of buyers who are in fact prepared to buy a home without necessarily physically inspecting it, whether they're from overseas or interstate, or maybe they just can't get out of their homes for whatever reasons which now, post-pandemic, we're prepared to define more broadly. So, it could just be that they've got really small kids and they're not feeling up to it today because life's too damn hard. Ignoring virtual tours takes these buyers out of your potential buyer stack which kind of seems shortsighted.

Kylie Davis:

Virtual tours gives buyers the option to review properties in detail and to create more narrowed down short lists for the properties that they do physically want to inspect. In short, a virtual tour is a tool that says that you as an agent respect the time constraints of your buyers, and you're prepared to assist them so that when you do see them in person you know they are really committed. And as a marketer, I agree with Josh's view that virtual tours belong a bit further down the marketing funnel because they're an indication of intent rather than engagement. You can see that from the consistent or the re-engagement that you're getting just how involved someone is in a property.

Kylie Davis:

Now, as a startup, Little Hinges have set up their insights panel in isolation. It's in their own space, but I don't believe that will last for long, and it's my prediction that you'll see them integrating with more CRMs or marketing platforms, and what an amazing set of insights you're going to have on intent and engagement then.

Kylie Davis:

Now, if you have enjoyed this episode of the proptech Podcast, I would love you to tell your friends or drop me a line either via email, LinkedIn, or on our Facebook page. You can follow this podcast on Spotify, Google Podcasts, Anchor, and Apple iTunes. I'd like to thank my podcast producer, the fabulous Charlie Hollands, and our sponsors Direct Connect, making moving easy, Dynamic Methods, the name behind Forms Live, REI Forms Live and Realworks, and the Proptech association of Australia, Australia's industry body supporting the flourishing proptech community. Now, if you're an Australian or a New Zealand proptech who would like to be on the show, drop me a line via LinkedIn or kylie@proptechassociation.com.au. Thanks everyone. Until next time, keep on propteching.